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A Question of Tolerance in Islam

Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 12:52 pm
by _Kevin Graham
I found this in some of my old files. I wrote it way back in 2006/2007, and I don't believe I've ever shared it with the online community:

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Dan Peterson once stated, on the forum formerly known as the FAIR Boards:

One point I want to make here that is really important is that Islam did not spread by the sword, the Arabs did


So the Arabs were spread by the sword. Well that's certainly important to know. Nevermind the fact that those Arabs, who were virtually all Muslim, regularly offered conversion to Islam as a means to avoid destruction. To say it was only the Arabs who spread, and not their religion, is really a distinction without much of a difference.

it was amazingly bloodless in many cases, when they invaded Egypt, for example, the Egyptians were so mad at the Byzantines that an Egyptian went down and opened the gates at Cairo…and let the Muslims come in, and let the Arab armies come in because they wanted to get out from under the Byzantines.


I assume he is speaking of a story in reference to the Persian invasion, and it is easy to offer a romantic view of oppression when you’re ignoring the testimony of the oppressed. Daring to ruin the moment, here is an account of what happened as recorded by the Coptic Christians (emphasis mine):

Shortly after the ordination of Abba Andronicus, the Persians invaded the East and crossed the river Euphrates. They seized Halab, Antioch in Syria, Jerusalem, and many other cities. They killed and imprisoned many Christians. They captured Egypt and went to the City of Alexandria (now Cairo), around which there were six hundred inhabited monasteries. They killed all the inhabitants, plundered their possessions, and destroyed the monasteries. When the people of Alexandria heard what they had done, because of their fear, they opened the gates of the city for them. The Persian King saw in a night dream someone saying to him, 'I have delivered to you the city. Do not destroy it. But kill its heroes for they are hypocrites.' He arrested the Governor of the city, and tied him up in chains. He ordered the elders of the city to bring forth the men, from 18 to 50 years old to come forward to give everyone twenty denari, and to enlist them as soldiers for the city. Eighty thousand men came forward and he killed them all by the sword. Afterward, the Persian King went with his army to Upper Egypt. He passed by the city of Nikios. He heard that there were some seven hundred monks living in cells and caves around it. He sent men to kill them. He continued to kill and destroy until Emperor Heraclius conquered him and drove him out of Egypt. (Coptic Diary, Tubah 8:2)


According to this account, the opening of the gates was similar to waving a white flag and it was in reference to the Persian not the Arab invasion. In this case the citizens of Alexandria (Cairo) were perfectly aware of the fact that the invading armies had taken over nearby areas and that the city's gates were not about to stop them. Lucky for them, the Persian King decided to use this to his advantage by claiming to have seen a vision in a dream. In any event, to say the Egyptians let in the Muslim invaders because they preferred Islamic rule over Byzantine, is pure speculation based on what appears to be a superficial and anti-critical reading of history. To say a person opened the gates because, "they wanted to get out from under the Byzantines" is another illicit leap in logic that is not supported by the historical record.

When the Arabs invaded Alexandria, I am unaware of any story about a man running down to open the gates. This would make little sense in light of the fact that the Patriarch Cyrus had already gone to the Muslim leader to negotiate the surrender. According to a chronicle written between 693 and 700 by the Coptic Bishop John,

...the patriarch Cyrus set out and went to Babylon to the Moslem, seeking by the offer of tribute to procure peace from them and put a stop to war in the land of Egypt. And 'Amr welcomed his arrival, and said unto him: 'Thou hast done well to come to us.' And Cyrus answered and said unto him : 'God has delivered this land into your hands : let there be no enmity from henceforth between you and Rome : heretofore there has been no persistent strife with you.' And they fixed the amount of tribute to be paid. And as for the Ishmaelites, they were not to intervene in any matter, but were to keep to themselves for eleven months. The Roman troops in Alexandria were to carry off their possessions and their treasures and proceed (home) by sea, and no other Roman army was to return. But those who wished to journey by land were to pay a monthly (?) tribute. And the Moslem were to take as hostages one hundred and fifty soldiers and fifty civilians and make peace. And the Romans were to cease warring against the Moslem, and the Moslem were to desist from seizing Christian Churches, and the latter were not to intermeddle with any concerns of the Christians. And the Jews were to be permitted to remain in the city of Alexandria.


When Cyrus returned he had to persuade the Egyptians to accept the terms to which he had agreed. Upon the arrival of the Muslim forces, the Egyptians who knew nothing about the treaty were enraged to find out about it.

[Cyrus] persuaded them all to accept them. And while things were in this condition, the Moslem came to receive the tribute, though the inhabitants of Alexandria had not yet been informed (of the treaty). And the Alexandrians, on seeing them, made ready for battle. But the troops and the generals held fast to the resolution they had adopted, and said: 'We cannot engage in battle with the Moslem: rather let the counsel of the patriarch Cyrus be observed.' Then the population rose up against the patriarch and sought to stone him. But he said unto them: 'I have made this treaty in order to save you and your children.' And plunged in much weeping and grief he besought them. And thereupon the Alexandrians felt ashamed before him, and offered him a large sum of gold to hand over to the Ishmaelites together with the tribute which had been imposed on them. And the Egyptians, who, through fear of the Moslem, had fled and taken refuge in the city of Alexandria, made the following request to the patriarch : 'Get the Moslem.to promise that we may return to our cities and become their subjects. And he negotiated for them according to their request. And the Moslem took possession of all the land of Egypt, southern and northern, and trebled (tripled) their taxes.


The response by the Egyptians flies in the face of Peterson's claim that the Egyptians were anxious to live under Islamic rule. It is also worth noting that the desecration of Christian Churches and the persecution of Jews ceased because these were conditions of the negotiation set by Cyrus. That he made these requests at all seems to indicate that Muslim invasions usually involved persecution towards both. So where does a story about a guy running down to open the gates fit in with this scenario? It seems Dr. Peterson was conflating two different invasions and getting his stories mixed up.

It is also revealing that Dr. Peterson says Islamic conquests were bloodless in "many" cases, yet the example from the Egyptian raids which he uses to make his point, was clearly the exception not the rule. According to John the Copt, after the death of Cyrus Amr did not hold to his agreement and began to unleash fury upon the Egyptians:

Then the Muslims arrived in Nikiou. There was not a single soldier to resist them. They seized the town and slaughtered everyone they met in the street and in the churches - men, women and children, sparing nobody. Then they went to other places, pillaged and killed all the inhabitants they found... But let us now say no more, for it is impossible to describe the horrors the Muslims committed when the occupied the island of Nikious, on Sunday, the eighteenth day of the month of Guenbot, in the fifteenth year of the lunar cycle, as well as the terrible scenes which took place in Caesarea in Palestine.


Centuries later, the calamity caused by the Muslim conquest was stuck firmly in the minds of the surviving Copts. According to one Monk from the 12th century, “The Muslims took [Egypt] from us, they appropriated it by force and violence, and it is from our hands that they seized power.” He then refers to the, “massacre that they wrought on our kings and our ruling families during their conquest.” (Documented in Bat Ye’or, The Dhimmi: Jews and Christians Under Islam, 206)

Incidentally, the caliph Umar once asked the question, “Do you think that these vast countries, Syria, Mesopotamia, Kufa, Basra, Misr [Egypt] do not have to be covered with troops who must be well paid?” Why does Dr. Peterson suppose occupying troops would be needed, if, as he implies, the residents were grateful for their presence?

Ultimately we have first hand accounts from eye-witnesses, and then we have the politically correct academia assuring us the Muslims of times past were “amazingly gentle and merciful” in their conquests. This is a myth that lives on because of the protection is receives from the academy.

The Muslims did not force conversions, what they did was they gave people three choices… you can convert to Islam, or you can die


This is interesting because at this point Peterson concedes that in at least some cases, Islam was spread by force. Yet, he feels no need for balance when making the sweeping generalization that “Muslims did not force conversions.” This is political correctness gone amuk, and one needs to think more dimensionally in order to understand that there are various forms of coercion. In the case of most dhimmi conversions, the coercion was sociological and economical. However, in the case of the pagans/polytheists, conversions were often forced at sword-point.

In order to avoid the usual bigot-baiting tactic which asserts this understanding is one chosen from a premise of prejudice, and not information, I will demonstrate that my understanding is on par with various Islamic educators. For example, the website http://www.islam-qa.com is a pro-Islam website that is run by an imam who responds to questions offered by Muslims online. One inquirer asks, “Was Islam spread by the sword?” to which the imam responded in the affirmative, noting that this notion that Islam wasn’t spread by the sword is a “trap” set by Western academics. His rationale was that, “This goes against what the Muslim scholars have stated, let alone the fact that it goes against the Qur’aan and Sunnah.” The full explanation he offered is as fascinating as it is intricate.

On a similar website we find the following teaching:

The Qur'an tells us that Muhammad (sws) was not only a Prophet (nabi) but also a messenger (Rasu'l) of Allah. The Qur'an tells us that when Allah sends His messenger in a people, these people are not allowed to live on Allah's earth if they reject the messenger. It tells us that these people are given time in which to make up their minds and to present all their objections against the messenger (Rasu'l). It tells us that when the Al-knowing Allah decides that these people have been given adequate time and that they are now absolutely clear of the truthfulness of the messenger and thus are not left with any excuse for their rejection but still are persistent in their rejection then Allah directs his prophet to migrate from the area and then he destroys all those who have rejected his messenger. The Qur'an refers to the peoples (nations of the messengers of old - Noah, Hood, Lot, Shoaib, Saaleh and Moses (pbuh)- and narrates the result of their rejection. It declares to the direct addressees of Muhammad (sws) that if they don't accept the message of Allah's messenger (Muhammad) their fate shall be no different from those nations that have gone before them. (Surah al-Qamar the whole Surah especially verse no 43-45)

In short the Qur'an says it is the unalterable law of Allah that when he sends his messenger in a people, these particular people are left with no option but to accept his message or to face the punishment of death and sometimes complete annihilation.


A Pakistani based Muslim web forum concurs: "Authorities are of the opinion that Muslims must fight the polytheist nations as well as the Jews and Christians of today until they subdue them. It is further held that while the polytheist nations must be put to death if they do not accept faith, the Jews and Christians can be allowed to live on their religions if they submit to Muslim authority by paying Jizyah."

The point here is that this understanding is not a product of prejudice. It is a product of reasonable and popular interpretation of sacred Islamic texts, untainted by moral relativism and political correctness.

or you can maintain your religion and maintain a slightly higher tax rate, in exchange for which you will not have to serve in the military and we will treat you just fine.


And yet, according to one Muslim historian, Habib Malik of the Lebanese American University:

Over the centuries political Islam has not been too kind to the native Christian communities living under its rule. Anecdotes of tolerance aside, the systematic treatment of Christians and Jews as second-class citizens (dhimmi) is abusive and discriminatory by any standard… Under Islam, the dhimmi are not allowed to build new places of worship or renovate existing ones dhimmi women are available for marriage to Muslims while the reverse is strictly prohibited; the political rights of dhimmis are absent; and the targeted d himmi community and each individual in it are made to live in a state of perpetual humiliation in the eyes of the ruling community… These measures can only spell a recipe for gradual liquidation. (Malik, “Christians in the Land Called Holy,” First Things, January 1999.)


It is sad when we find that products of academia are more than willing to dwell on sporadic anecdotes of tolerance, pretend they were the norm, and falsely characterize centuries of oppression and gradual liquidation, as being “treated just fine.”

Moreover, what the good doctor isn’t telling us is that these options were initially available only to Jews and Christians, while the majority theists – mostly of a polytheistic variety - were initially given only two choices, conversion or death; though dhimmi status was optional to polytheists by later caliphs for the sake of pragmatism.

The detailed analyses of the treatment of Islam’s subjugated peoples has become taboo. Those who have dared threaten the established consensus with newer findings have been attacked relentlessly and their research has for the most part gone ignored. Peterson asserts that the tax was only “slightly higher.” What is he thinking? What is his source for this generalization which covers centuries of dhimmitude? One hadith speaks of the dhimmi tax burden being twice that which was imposed on Muslims.(Malik ibn Anas, Muwatta’ Imam Malik, translated by Muhammad Rahimuddin, 2000 ch. 177, no. 661) According to Bishop John, "And the Moslem took possession of all the land of Egypt, southern and northern, and tripled their taxes." An increase of 100%-200% is what Peterson calls "slightly higher"?

And this makes perfect sense given the fact that the purpose of the tax increase was so that the subjugated peoples would “feel themselves subdued.” A "slightly higher" tax is unlikely to cause anyone to feel subdued; so it is pointless to rationalize a romantic view of the tax (i.e. suggesting the tax was lower than what they were used to, they were grateful for being exempt from military service, that the victims were just happy to be out from underneath the Byzantine yoke, et cetera). The whole point behind the tax was to humiliate, and this comes directly from the Quran, (Surah 9:29). Payment of the tax was usually in the form of public ritual, where the dhimmi would sometimes have to kneel before the collector and make payment as he is slapped across the face. This is how the famous Al-Ghazali described it:

…the dhimmi is obliged not to mention Allah or His Apostle…Jews, Christians, and Majians must pay the jizya [poll tax on non-Muslims]…on offering up the jizya, the dhimmi must hang his head while the official takes hold of his beard and hits [the dhimmi] on the protruberant bone beneath his ear [i.e., the mandible]… They are not permitted to ostentatiously display their wine or church bells…their houses may not be higher than the Muslim’s, no matter how low that is. The dhimmi may not ride an elegant horse or mule; he may ride a donkey only if the saddle[-work] is of wood. He may not walk on the good part of the road. They [the dhimmis] have to wear [an identifying] patch [on their clothing], even women, and even in the [public] baths…[dhimmis] must hold their tongue…. (Al-Ghazali (d. 1111). Kitab al-Wagiz fi fiqh madhab al-imam al-Safi’i, Beirut, 1979, pp. 186, 190-91; 199-200; 202-203. English translation by Dr. Michael Schub.)


The Andalusian Maliki jurist Ibn Abdun (d. 1134) offered these telling legal opinions regarding Jews and Christians in Seville around 1100 A.D.:

No Jew or Christian may be allowed to wear the dress of an aristocrat, nor of a jurist, nor of a wealthy individual; on the contrary they must be detested and avoided. It is forbidden to greet them with the expression, “Peace be upon you’. In effect, ‘Satan has gained possession of them, and caused them to forget God’s warning. They are the confederates of Satan’s party; Satan’s confederates will surely be the losers!” A distinctive sign must be imposed upon them in order that they may be recognized and this will be for them a form of disgrace.


The famous Jew Moses Maimonides, the renowned philosopher and physician, experienced the Almohad persecutions, and had to flee Cordova with his entire family in 1148. Contrary to the myth of a tolerant society in Muslim Spain, he testified that,“..the Arabs have persecuted us severely, and passed baneful and discriminatory legislation against us...Never did a nation molest, degrade, debase, and hate us as much as they.” Never? Not even the Christian nations? Apparently not, but don't tell that to any modern-day MES scholar, as it would shatter one of their favored myths.

As mentioned before, dhimmitude worked so well that future caliphs preferred to extend this status to polytheists as opposed to killing them. After all, the taxes received boosted the Islamic economy. Subjugated people were always cows that needed to be milked first. And the exemption from military service was qualified by the fact that everyone was obligated to take up arms if the community was under attack. If one refused to fight, after the battle he would be put to death for treason. This was the justification for the beheading of 600-900 Jewish males which Muhammad based on no evidence other than "an angel told me."

Most people opted for that, in fact it took about five centuries before Egypt for instance became majority Muslim. It was a very gradual process. It was not done at sword point, in fact the Qu’ran forbids forced conversion…


Naturally it is a gradual process, but if Peterson is suggesting that people were not generally coerced to convert to Islam then he is being intellectually dishonest. There are many ways to force people to do something, aside from putting a blade to their throat. For the dhimmi, it was illegal to make them choose between death and conversion. This much is true. However, the restrictions placed upon the dhimmi meant social inequality to a spectacular degree. Conversion to Islam would relieve converts of many social inflictions that became unbearable. The restrictions placed on Jews and Christians, such as the lost privilege of rebuilding new places of worship and renovating existing ones, the lost privilege of practicing one’s religion publicly and being able to leave Islam without being put to death, were intended to eventually kill off these religions. The logic was that God’s true religion will reveal itself in numbers and prominence, and symbolism played an important role. This is why Muslims have traditionally built Mosques on top of cites where synagogues or cathedrals once stood. It is symbolic of the “age of ignorance,” (Judaism and Christianity) being replaced by Islam.

In fact Islam has been more tolerant on minority religions than Christianity has been, and I think that is another important point that really needs to be stressed.


Of course I am a bigot for judging the level of tolerance in Islam, but Dan gladly makes that judgment for Christianity! This is of course the Islamic apologist’s bread and butter argument that counts on a naïve and uncritical audience. The problem here should be obvious to those who understand that Islam and Christianity are not equal, but today there is this trendy philosophy of moral and cultural relativism that blinds most critical thinkers of the important differences. First and foremost is the fact that Islam and politics are inseparable. Islam is a political force by design. Thus, there is hardly any distinction that can be made between the actions of Islamic rulers, including Muhammad, and Islam itself.

By contrast, Christianity is a religion while its political counterpart, the Byzantine Empire (commonly called Christendom) was altogether a different entity. So for Dr. Peterson to immediately conflate the two without accounting for these crucial differences is carelessness. Bernard Lewis articulates this point well enough,

The founder of Christianity bade his followers 'render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things which are God's' (Matt 22:21) - and for centuries Christianity grew and developed as a religion of the downtrodden, until with the conversion to Christianity of the emperor Constantine, Caesar himself became a Christian and inaugurated a series of changes by which the new faith captured the Roman Empire and transformed its civilization. The Founder of Islam was his own Constantine, and founded his own state and empire. (Bernard Lewis, Crisis of Islam, p.6)


Thus, we must recognize and take into account these differences before we begin drawing parallels between what Islam allowed compared to Christianity. In Christianity there was the pope, a leader who declared what Christianity was supposed to be and he could act on its behalf. Byzantine kings acted on their own behalf, using Christianity as a symbol and political tool. Some were more influenced by the pope’s advice than others, but none were legally bound to it. When these emperors were intolerant towards minority faiths, it is erroneous to assume these were examples of “Christianity's” intolerance. Oftentimes these acts were in direct contradiction to what the pope had suggested. According to a lecture by Cecil Roth,

Only in Rome has the colony of Jews continued its existence since before the beginning of the Christian era, because of all the dynasties of Europe, the Papacy not only refused to persecute the Jews of Rome and Italy, but throughout the ages popes were protectors of the Jews…The truth is that the popes and the Catholic Church from the earliest days of the Church were never responsible for physical persecution of Jews and only Rome, among the capitals of the world, is free from having been a place of Jewish tragedy. For this we Jews must have gratitude.


In another example, when the pope tried to stop the notorious inquisition, the king of Spain refused the counsel and continued to use it to suppress those who would threaten his kingdom. When Muslims were denying Jews the right to practice their religion publicly, the popes were urging Christians everywhere to grant them this privilege. Further, the Islamic prohibition against Christians and Jews testifying in court against Muslims was in stark contrast to the popes who said it would be wrong to allow Christians to testify against Jews. This is a clear example on specifics, where Christianity was tolerant and Islam was not.

Re: A Question of Tolerance in Islam

Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 3:51 pm
by _Doctor CamNC4Me

Re: A Question of Tolerance in Islam

Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 4:04 pm
by _Doctor CamNC4Me
http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2012/05/ ... ?hpt=hp_c1

Anyone want to take a stab at the Islamic law that allows this kind of atrocity to be perpetuated toward women in Islam?

After nine months in a shelter in Kabul, Aesha came to America in August 2010 for help, including reconstructive surgery offered free by the Grossman Burn Foundation, a humanitarian medical group in the Los Angeles area.


Interesting a Jewish foundation would be there to help Muslims in distress. I wonder how Islamic organizations would offer the same kind of aid to Jewish victims of violence?

- VRDRC

Re: A Question of Tolerance in Islam

Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 2:03 pm
by _Kevin Graham
According to Dr. Peterson, "Al-Azhar, [is] the most eminent Islamic university in the Arabic-speaking world...meaning [it makes a person a] very highly qualified as an interpreter of Islam.” If earning a doctorate from Al-Azhar makes one a highly qualified interpreter of Islam, then how much more qualified are those who educate and provide them with their doctorates?

Sheikh Ali Abu Al-Hassan, is the head of Al-Azhar's Religious Ruling Committee. When America decided to attack Afghanistan shortly after 9-11, he said: "Entering into an alliance with the Americans against Afghanistan constitutes Ridah [turning away from belief in Islam]… The Afghan opposition [forces] must not put [their] hand in the hand of the Americans; they must stand with their countrymen [and] their co-religionists, otherwise Allah and his angels will curse them…" Is this not an endorsement for the Taliban? He continued,

If the enemy sets foot on the lands of Islam, he must be fought. In this case, a man must set out [on a Jihad] without the permission of his father, a woman without the permission of her husband, a debtor without the permission of his lender, and a slave without the permission of his master. Islam urges us to set out on a Jihad for the sake of Allah until we accomplish one of two good things: martyrdom or victory…" When Islam is attacked, there are no borders. Jihad in this instance is an obligation for all Muslims… In this instance, the aggression is against Islam and therefore it is the obligation of all Muslims, not only the local residents, to protect this piece of land…"


Then there is Dr. Abd Al-Azim Al-Mut'ani, an Al-Azhar University lecturer:

Terrorism is a modern term. In Islam, the meaning of terrorism is intimidation, not all intimidation is forbidden by religious law...The most recent example of the so-called terrorism are the recent attacks against America. Whatever the interpretations may be, no one disagrees that America is the one who killed and was killed. It is America that killed itself with its distorted policy.


Is this not clear statement that Islam supports terrorism as we define it? Al-Azhar professors Dr. Abd Al-Sabour Shahin and Dr. Abd Al-Hay Al-Farmawi both support the sentiments expressed above, and Dr. Yahyah Isma'il, the official spokesman of the Al-Azhar clerics, maintained that all Muslims around the world should fight the Americans in Afghanistan.

As far as the term "tolerance" is concerned, we learned recently just how vacant this word really is. In the new Democratic Afghanistan, a man is on trial for converting to Christianity and faces the death penalty. This is not a Taliban led Afghanistan anymore. This is a country being run by the will of the people. According to the BBC:

Afghanistan's post-Taleban constitution is based on Sharia law, and prosecutors in the case says this means Abdul Rahman, whose trial began last Thursday, should be put to death. When he was arrested last month he was found to be carrying a Bible and charged with rejecting Islam which is punishable by death in Afghanistan. Trial judge Ansarullah Mawlazezadah told the BBC that Mr Rahman, 41, would be asked to reconsider his conversion, which he made while working for a Christian aid group in Pakistan. "We will invite him again because the religion of Islam is one of tolerance. We will ask him if he has changed his mind. If so we will forgive him," the judge told the BBC on Monday.


Because Islam offers apostates the opportunity to return to Islam, it is a "tolerant" faith. Nevermind the fact that it sanctions the death sentence of those who refuse. What twisted definition of "tolerance" is this?

Pipes explains how, "Radical Islam has two distinct wings - one violent and illegal, the other lawful and political - and they exist in tension with each other. The lawful strategy has proven itself effective, but the violent approach gets in its way." Academics like Peterson and Hamblin are quick to point out that most Muslims are not violent. But just because most Muslims do not engage in violence does not mean most Muslims necessarily disapprove of violence. That the majority of a billion people do not commit violence against America is hardly ground breaking news. But many Muslims remain quiet in public while cheering the terrorists on the sidelines; we saw this first hand on 9-11.

Most Americans supported the war in Afghanistan, but only a tiny minority of Americans actually participated in the war. Likewise, the mujuhidin are the Muslim soldiers participating in jihad warfare (Sahih Bukhari 4.48 ). Not everyone is a mujahid anymore than every American is in the armed forces. But their absence in warfare says nothing about their preference for peace. Of the three dozen Muslim clerics that have been banned or deported from European countries for inciting hatred, perhaps none of them have actually engaged in violence. But that alone wouldn't qualify them as moderate or peace-loving, so why do people presume this formula works for the "billion" Muslims who are unheard from?

I could sit here and provide citations from dozens upon dozens of radical Muslim Imams throughout the Middle-East and South Asia, that would send chills down your spine. But that would clearly be a misrepresentation of the "majority" of Islam. American Islam is viewed by many as the last hope for a successful reform towards a moderate Islam. In America, reformers are permitted by law to express their views in ways forbidden in Muslim countries. However, the problem is getting their voice heard, as well as having them respected and followed by the global Muslim community.

It is without question that the number of militant Islamic operatives with plans to carry out terrorist attacks on the United States is relatively tiny when compared to the Muslim population as a whole. The situation, nonetheless, is more complex. According to Daniel Pipes, an Islam expert liked by Dan Peterson,

The Muslim population is not like any other, for it harbors a substantial body - one many times larger than the agents of Osama bin Laden - who have worrisome aspirations for the United States. Although not responsible for the atrocities in September, these people share important goals with the suicide hijackers: Both despise the United States and ultimately wish to transform it into a Muslim country. However bizarre this goal, the killing of over three thousand Americans requires that it be noted and seriously worried about.


So what exactly are the most vocal and prominent Muslim groups saying? The Muslim Student Association (MSA) is the largest Muslim organization in North America. Today, over 150 MSA chapters exist on American college campuses, including BYU. What exactly is this organization's business? Read how patriotic some of our Muslim students are acting. At a meeting in Queensborough Community College in March 2003, a guest speaker named Faheed declared, "We reject the U.N., reject America, reject all law and order. Don't lobby Congress or protest because we don't recognize Congress. The only relationship you should have with America is to topple it … Eventually there will be a Muslim in the White House dictating the laws of shariah." During an October 2000 anti-Israeli protest, former MSA president Ahmed Shama at the University of California, Los Angeles (UCLA) stood before the Israeli consulate in Los Angeles, shouting "Victory to Islam! Death to the Jews!" MSA West president Sohail Shakr declared at the same rally, "the biggest impediment to peace [in the Middle East] has been the existence of the Zionist entity in the middle of the Muslim world." Prior to September 11, 2001, the MSA formally assisted three Islamic charities in fundraising: the Holy Land Foundation, Global Relief, and Benevolence Foundation. Afterwards, all three were accused by the Federal Bureau of Investigation of having serious links to terrorism and were ordered closed. The MSA chapter of the University of Southern California, says on its website that the duty of Muslims is to: "Defend the rights of Muslims abroad, and to see to it that Islam can spread freely in non-Muslim lands (including the use of force). Organize jihad against any non-Muslim government which prevents Muslim da'wah from entering its land." The MSA's presence serves as a feather in a University's cap of diversity, and no formal inquiry into its motives or political agenda is acceptable. They are immune to criticism and given the benefit of the doubt. Here are some more eye-opening remarks:

Zaid Shakir, former Muslim chaplain at Yale said:

Muslims cannot accept the legitimacy of the secular system in the United States, for it "is against the orders and ordainments of Allah . . . the orientation of the Qur'an pushes us in the exact opposite direction as the forces that are at work in the American political spectrum.


Fawaz Damra, a convicted Imam from Ohio said:

The first principle is that terrorism, and terrorism alone, is the path to liberation...If what they mean by jihad is terrorism, then we are terrorists.


Sami Al Arian, South Florida professor who receives praise and support from academia's most prominent scholars, said:

Let us continue the protests. Let us damn America. Let us damn Israel. Let us damn their allies until death. Mohammad is leader. The Qu’ran is our constitution. Jihad is our path. Victory to Islam. Death to Israel. Revolution! Revolution! Until Victory! Rolling, rolling to Jerusalem.


Ibrahim Hooper of Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR) said:

I wouldn't want to create the impression that I wouldn't like the government of the United States to be Islamic sometime in the future.


Omar Ahmad of CAIR said:

Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faiths, but to become dominant. The Koran…should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth.


Siraj Wahhaj is a convert to Islam, the recipient of some of the Muslim community's highest honors, and called "one the most respected Muslim leaders in America." He said:

I have a vision in America, Muslims owning property all over, Muslim businesses, factories, halal meat, supermarkets, all these buildings owned by Muslims. Can you see the vision, can you see the Newark International Airport and a John Kennedy Airport and LaGuardia having Muslim fleets of planes, Muslim pilots. Can you see our trucks rolling down the highways, Muslim names.


Ihsan Bagby Professor of Islamic Studies at University of Kentucky, (PhD from University of Michigan) said:

Ultimately we can never be full citizens of this country, because there is no way we can be fully committed to the institutions and ideologies of this country.


Imam Muzammil H. Siddiqi of the Islamic Society of North America, said:

We must not forget that Allah's rules have to be established in all lands


And of course, this is peanuts when compared to the statements from Muslim authorities abroad. If you're a typical multicultural relativist, I know what you're thinking. Something along the lines of, "Well all religions in America can produce examples of extremists who wish to conquer America and change its laws." That they can is beyond question. That they in fact do, is something that needs to be demonstrated before the MR doctrine is taken for granted. MRs don't want to interact much with the reality that undermines their assumptions. I would like to propose a challenge for anyone who can demonstrate examples of just one or maybe two Mormons, or Baptists, or Catholics, or Jews who believe the constitution should be overthrown by their religion. Since Mormons in America number about the same as Muslims, and the latter three outnumber them, assuming all things are equal, surely this should be an easy task. Further, it isn't just some looney Muslims who make these comments. This is the doctrine that is spewed at Islamic rallies on our own University campuses. My point here is simple. If we cannot fall back on the prominent Muslim organizations to be "moderate" in their voices, where else can we turn?

Is Dan Peterson trying to tell us that he knows "true Islam" much better than all of these Muslim authorities?

Re: A Question of Tolerance in Islam

Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 1:54 pm
by _Kevin Graham
And the hits just keep on coming.

In Pakistan, the man who helped the CIA capture and kill Osama bin Ladin, is sentenced to 33 years in Prison sue to treason!

Re: A Question of Tolerance in Islam

Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 2:30 pm
by _Chap
Kevin, I feel I should mention that a number of us are quite disturbed by your failure to respond to Wade Englund's generous offer to help you with faith issues, on a thread he has created for that specific purpose.

I for one feel that your chilling failure to seize with both hands this opportunity to be helped by such an experienced and sensitive spiritual guide calls in question your entire character, not just your sincerity as a seeker after truth.