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In a thread on this other board, the self-styled apologist Wade Englund said something along the line that he has a "thriving reasoned-based world-view." Assuming his stated desire is genuine, and given that his past and present modi operandorum have evidently drawn disdain on this board, I have decided to come here to see if I can help him with his belief in Mormonism in general and the LDS Church in particular.

To be clear, I have no other interest here than that. For Wade's sake, I am making this one exception to my self-imposed ban on interacting with him, and will only be responding to relevant posts from him on this thread.

At the outset I think it wise to first make sure whether Wade would really like to have a reason-based world view, and whether he is willing and ready to have his mind and heart opened once again to any kind of growth. Are you?

Thanks, -Darth J-

At the outset, I would like to make it clear that I am doing this thread for Wade's benefit. It is tough love. If he is simply too much of a coward to substantively respond, or too intellectually dishonest, I will press forward nonetheless, in the hope that he might have the opportunity to learn something by at least lurking here.

Productive civic dialogue is, in part, a function of simply and accurately framing the issues. And, the simple and accurate framing of issues is, in part, a function of exacting and descriptive terminology.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints touts Thomas Spencer Monson as a "prophet, seer, and revelator."

Thomas Monson has not prophesied anything. He has not "seen" anything. He has not revealed anything. I would submit that God's law must be at least as coherent and internally consistent as man-made law. In man-made, positive law, lists of terms in a statute are construed according to a principle called "ejusdem generis," which means "of the same kind or class.....used in law to limit the application of a broad term to a specific class of things." Given that God is at least as intelligent and wise in crafting His laws as human beings are, we can see that "prophet" in this context is meant as more than just "an inspired teacher." It is meant to convey a sense of supernatural gifts and knowledge outside the information environment and perspective available to ordinary mortals.

However, during his tenure as president of the Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Thomas S. Monson has done nothing to show that he has access to such knowledge or perspective. His teachings have consisted of folksy feel-good stories (the accuracy of which is often questionable), basic common sense advice that requires no assistance from divine insight, and self-referential reminders that "the Church is true" and reiterations of things that the Church already teaches. The most that can be said is that Thomas S. Monson is a place-holder. Not exactly a rousing cry to announce to the people of the world that the heavens are open and the word of the Lord is coming down from Mt. Zion.

If this is what a prophet, seer, and revelator is, then it is so banal and pedestrian that the terminology is meaningless. It also means that the claim of the LDS Church to be lead by a living prophet is self-refuting, because it is indistinguishable from what the Church would look like without a living prophet.

CaliforniaKid wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsqJFIJ5lLs

Am I entertained?

Yes, ever so much, thanks!

According to LDS dogma, its leaders have a spiritual power called "the gift of discernment."

DISCERNMENT, GIFT OF

To understand or know something through the power of the Spirit. The gift of discernment is one of the gifts of the Spirit. It includes perceiving the true character of people and the source and meaning of spiritual manifestations.

The gift of discernment does not exist, notwithstanding unverifiable faith-promoting anecdotes to the contrary. Time after time, when the gift of discernment would be extremely useful to the Bretheren, they show that they do not have it. I will refer to three examples, since in the mouth of two or three witnesses all things shall be established.

A documented example of the absence of the gift of discernment is the case of George P. Lee. George P. Lee was a pedophile whom Spencer W. Kimball, then the alleged prophet, called to the First Quorum of the Seventy in 1975. During the time as a General Authority, when Elder Lee supposedly held the sealing power and other priesthood powers, he tried to sexually molest a 12 year-old girl. Eventually, he plead guilty to criminal charges arising from his attempt to have sexual contact with this 12 year-old. The leadership of the LDS Church demonstrated no ability to perceive the true character of this person they had set apart as a General Authority.

For many years, Paul H. Dunn, another General Authority, gave talks over the pulpit in the name of Jesus Christ in which Dunn told false stories about himself for the purpose of personal aggrandizement. That the fictitious stories about Dunn's claimed war heroism and professional baseball career were not merely "parables" is clear from the circumstances. Dunn's fabricated stories were not about some anonymous person to prove some universal principle. The stories were about Dunn, and there were not any principles in particular to be learned other than what a god among men Paul H. Dunn was. Dunn also made money through book and audio cassette sales of his false stories to credulous members of the LDS Church. This financial fraud was carried out largely through Deseret Book, an LDS Church-owned publisher which, coincidentally, also made money by peddling Dunn's lies to faithful Latter-day Saints. At no time during the many years of this ongoing scheme did the leaders of the LDS Church show any ability to perceive the true character of this person who used his position of church authority to defraud untold numbers of the faithful. Nor did the Bretheren show any ability to understand the source and meaning of spiritual manifestations that so many of Dunn's marks claimed to have had in response to his miraculous stories of the gospel at work that turned out to be lies.

Then there is the Mark Hoffman affair. Despite the dog-ate-my-homework excuses and hand-wringing offered after the fact by the LDS Church and its defenders, seldom, if ever, has there been a time when the gift of discernment would have been needed by the leaders of the modern Church. Hoffman successfully defrauded the Church of a substantial amount of money. The Bretheren were made to look foolish (particularly Dallin H. Oaks, the special witness of Jesus Christ who explained why the Salamander Letter actually helped prove that the Church is true). The fraud concerned documents that, if they had been authentic, raised very serious questions about the origins of Mormonism. And people died over it. If the Mormon God is so interested in preserving the naïvété of the Bretheren and keeping them from becoming cynical that He will allow such a fraud to be perpetrated and innocent victims to be murdered, He is neither the God promised to exist in LDS scriptures, nor a God that any conscientious person should want to worship.

Or, alternatively, the gift of discernment simply does not exist.

Uh oh. I started to have a little belief by following Wade's guidelines, but now Mr. DarthJ is starting to undermine that.

Crap.

Back to square zero.

- VRDRC

Brother Englund, I see that you are still here on the board and posting in the other thread, while not as yet responding to this one. I understand. It can be difficult to humble yourself enough to reconsider your unquestioned assumptions, your specious reasoning, and your unwarranted conclusions that have defined your identity and your concept of the universe. Sometimes it takes sincere effort to muster the strength of character it takes to consider that maybe the stories mommy and daddy told you are not entirely true.

As a self-conscripted armchair apologist who has been discussing such things for years on the internet, you are of course aware that a great many people have come across significant stumbling blocks pertaining to the truth claims of the LDS Church. Typically, you prefer to assert that those who doubt are not asking the "right" questions, and you do not appear capable of the introspection to understand why your approach is problematic. That's because cloying paternalism is to Mormonism what water is to fish. The problem, Brother Englund, is that in the real world of thinking adults, you don't get to dictate to reasonable people what questions they are allowed to ask. Nor do you get to tell reasonable people with minds of their own what issues they are permitted to see as important vis-a-vis the truth claims of a religious entity that is asking for 10% of their money.

While the existence of such unresolved questions is itself a problem, there is a meta-problem that Mormon apologists are not willing to consider, nor even admit. The Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, dba "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints," is supposed to be led by living prophets and apostles of God. The glory of this God is said to be intelligence, and His work and His glory are claimed to be bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. According to Mormon lore, God has restored His true church is these last days of the Earth's temporal existence to accomplish His work of our salvation and eventual exaltation. Surely, this omnibenevolent and omniscient God is aware that He has set things up such that the Book of Mormon looks exactly like 19th-century fiction to reasonable observers, that the Book of Abraham looks exactly like a hoax, that the Church's most sacred exalting ordinances look exactly like a ham-handed plagiarism of Joseph Smith's dalliance with Freemasonry, that the Church's assertions about human history and origins are overwhelmingly gainsaid by numerous branches of science, etc.

So why has our kind and gracious Heavenly Father created---or at least passively allowed to come into being---a situation such that many, many, many of His children would see His true church as a ludicrous man-made venture according to the very conscience and intelligence He has given them? Why would He give us the extent of intellect, reasoning, and learning He has, then require that we completely disregard all of it in order to believe in a Church that He has made to look exactly like the work of men? Are His promises about His work and glory and love for us so utterly disingenuous that He has actually stacked the deck against His own church?

Moreover, why are not His living oracles addressing these issues with the power of His Spirit and the keys of the priesthood they hold? The Bretheren have plenty of time to dictate how many earrings girls can wear, and to tell us we can't watch movies the MPAA has decided to give an R rating. They can tell us stories about Tongan octopus traps, or how former presidents of the Church liked to eat date nut bread crumbled in a glass of milk. But they can't even purport to address why some people have homosexual inclinations, or why science says our species did not in fact originate 6,000 years ago in the American midwest, or why the Book of Mormon looks a whole lot like it was written by a 19th-century Yankee living in upstate New York, and so on.

Is Heavenly Father just yanking our collective chains, or do the Bretheren not really have the ability to address difficult issues?

I vote for total lack of confidence in Thomas S. Monson and motion that he be removed from the First Presidency and stripped of all his so-called powers of the holy apostleship.

The man is nothing but a greeting card salesman. He has no special power. He continues to hide up the lies of Mormonism simply to protect their office and priviledges they enjoy while they milk the church purse strings.

I am honored to deny Thomas S. Monson and proclaim with an open voice that he is a false prophet and I would raise my arm to the square and rebuke him to his face -- and laugh -- and surely I would get him angry. Grant me 2 mintutes with Tommy and I will stir him up to such anger he'd probably drop dead of a heart attack.



I mock the prophet!

Paul O

Darth J wrote:the self-styled apologist Wade Englund said something along the line that he has a "thriving reasoned-based world-view."

So much so that at one time, he had this big book that listed every known "logical fallacy" and proceeded to interact with people on the assumption that every criticism of the Church was somehow based on a logical fallacy. Indeed, he believes his own worldview to be the crowning achievement of pure reason.

So wade came over here to help Kevin Graham acquire faith in Mormonism?

He is either a sadist, a jackass, or an idiot.