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I recently listened to Mormon Stories Podcast 317-318. http://mormonstories.org/317-318-byu-pr ... -doctrine/

The thing that stuck out most in my mind as I listened was to hear Bro. Harrell state that the church is not very self critical. I think that was putting it lightly and tactfully. This is a big issue for me right now.

We have been taught that the prophet will never lead us astray. It's just not in the program. This teaching, by inference, suggests that the leaders are infallible. Am I wrong? They are effectively infallible!

I've grown up hearing cliché's like: "The members are not perfect but the church is perfect". Very recently, there was a talk in sacrament meeting where the speaker stated that the church is not perfect but the "doctrine" is perfect.

Correct me if I'm wrong but there has never been an official claim of perfection from within the church. The Book of Mormon was never claimed to be perfect. In fact the title page states that if there are mistakes, they are the mistakes of men. No prophet has ever claimed to be perfect or infallible. We the Mormon people need to accept the reality of imperfect leaders who make mistakes. This has to happen otherwise we are stuck in a self-righteous, bigoted mental state of spiritual retardation.

As I have delved into apologetics over the past few years, it's become glaringly obvious that prophets and apostles NOT infallible. They are human and make mistakes. This cultural view of an infallible church painted us into a corner.

If you don't mind, how old we're you "a few years ago" when you believed the prophets and apostles to be infallible?

zeezrom wrote:If you don't mind, how old we're you "a few years ago" when you believed the prophets and apostles to be infallible?

I don't think the concept ever really connects in the minds of the typical Mormon. I think if you were were to ask a typical church goer if the prophet were infallible, they would say no. I didn't think of them as infallible. However, they are immune from criticism and they will never lead you astray. If they were believed to be infallible, there would be little difference in how we reverence them.

The point is, the church makes mistakes but you can't point that out. You can't say in church that the leaders make mistakes.

We often discussed this in church and readily acknowledged that prophets and apostles made mistakes.

zeezrom wrote:We often discussed this in church and readily acknowledged that prophets and apostles made mistakes.

That's good. My experience has been closer to Bro. Harrell which is that the membership is sensitive to criticism. Just yesterday in my ward an old lady said something about how if you follow your leaders you will always be okay. I just squirmed in my seat.

Zelder, you made some great points.

I grew up with hearing that same saying, "The Church is perfect, the people aren't."

I think a more accurate statement would be, "The gospel of Jesus Christ is perfect, members of His Church are not."

ETA--And, yes, I think that to a large degree, we have painted ourselves in a bit of a corner by stating that by following Church leaders, we will not be led astray.

I think that a more precise statement would be that if we follow Church leaders, if the leaders are wrong, the sin will not be upon our heads, it will be upon the heads of the leaders.

Thinking of things in these terms still gives due respect for the faithful Latter-Day Saints who practiced polygamy in good faith because they felt they had to, etc.

liz3564 wrote:Zelder, you made some great points.

I grew up with hearing that same saying, "The Church is perfect, the people aren't."

I think a more accurate statement would be, "The gospel of Jesus Christ is perfect, members of His Church are not."

The problems begin, of course, with the question "If there is a gospel of Jesus Christ, and it is very important to us to act in accordance with it, how would we know what it was?"

The answer usually seems to be "The Church knows, and will tell you", and we are back to square one.

liz3564 wrote:I think that a more precise statement would be that if we follow Church leaders, if the leaders are wrong, the sin will not be upon our heads, it will be upon the heads of the leaders.

Thinking of things in these terms still gives due respect for the faithful Latter-Day Saints who practiced polygamy in good faith because they felt they had to, etc.

Hello Liz,

Can you think of any biblical accounts where the king was bad but the people didn't have to pay for it? I know when David ordered a census God sent a plague.

liz3564 wrote:
I think that a more precise statement would be that if we follow Church leaders, if the leaders are wrong, the sin will not be upon our heads, it will be upon the heads of the leaders.

Not much better. That is a line right out of the religious con-man instruction guide and I can't believe people fall for it.