Is it possible to transcend the LDS Church?

[_consiglieri]

When one has learned everything a given organization has to teach, what is the appropriate response?

Just a question I have been wrestling with lately . . .

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[_Willy Law]

I believe that was what Elder Poelman was trying to say before his GC talk was edited and re-shot complete with cough track.

[_Analytics]

The objection to conforming to usages that have become dead to you is, that it scatters your force. It loses your time and blurs the impression of your character. If you maintain a dead church, contribute to a dead Bible-society, vote with a great party either for the government or against it, spread your table like base housekeepers, — under all these screens I have difficulty to detect the precise man you are. And, of course, so much force is withdrawn from your proper life. But do your work, and I shall know you. Do your work, and you shall reinforce yourself. A man must consider what a blindman's-buff is this game of conformity. If I know your sect, I anticipate your argument. I hear a preacher announce for his text and topic the expediency of one of the institutions of his church. Do I not know beforehand that not possibly can he say a new and spontaneous word? Do I not know that, with all this ostentation of examining the grounds of the institution, he will do no such thing? Do I not know that he is pledged to himself not to look but at one side, — the permitted side, not as a man, but as a parish minister? He is a retained attorney, and these airs of the bench are the emptiest affectation. Well, most men have bound their eyes with one or another handkerchief, and attached themselves to some one of these communities of opinion. This conformity makes them not false in a few particulars, authors of a few lies, but false in all particulars. Their every truth is not quite true. Their two is not the real two, their four not the real four; so that every word they say chagrins us, and we know not where to begin to set them right. Meantime nature is not slow to equip us in the prison-uniform of the party to which we adhere.

[_consiglieri]

That is an awesome quote, Analytics.

Never did any passage of scripture come with more power into the heart of man than this did at this time into mine.

Do you have a source?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[_consiglieri]

I believe that was what Elder Poelman was trying to say before his GC talk was edited and re-shot complete with cough track.

I had never thought of Poelman's talk this way, WL.

Could you elucidate?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[_Willy Law]

I believe that was what Elder Poelman was trying to say before his GC talk was edited and re-shot complete with cough track.

I had never thought of Poelman's talk this way, WL.

Could you elucidate?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

I came away from hearing the pre-edited talk with the impression that he believes that some can outgrow the church. Maybe he was just referring to church programs, but I understood it to mean the church itself (not the gospel).
Here is a snippet that I think conveys that message and what it was changed to after the original was tossed down the memory hole.

“As individually and collectively we increase our knowledge, acceptance and application of gospel principles, we become less dependent on Church programs. Our lives become gospel centered.”

The section was revised to read:
“As individually and collectively we increase our knowledge, acceptance, and application of gospel principles, we can more effectively utilize the Church to make our lives increasingly gospel centered.”

[_mercyngrace]

When one has learned everything a given organization has to teach, what is the appropriate response?

Just a question I have been wrestling with lately . . .

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

I'm not sure you ever can learn all there is to learn from any relationship. Sometimes what you learn isn't the intended lesson but it's valuable anyway and can even be meaningful.

In terms of the church specifically, I've come to appreciate what the Jesus taught in the first few verses of Matthew 23.

To His disciples and the multitude, He pointed out that the Pharisees and Scribes, for all that they got wrong, still had authority ("sit in Moses' seat"). He followed that with the injunction to observe and keep the teachings of these ecclesiastical leaders even if the leaders themselves did not do what they should.

If you believe the church "sits in Moses' seat", then regardless of its institutional flaws and the failings of individuals within its ranks, you observe the laws not because of who your leaders are but because of who you are.

Jesus also taught the multitudes that "except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven."

So, if you're coming from a Christian paradigm, believing that these words in Matthew are a reliable account of the teachings of the Son of God, and you also believe there is a rightful line of priesthood authority (not power, that is an individual matter, just authority) then I think you remain observant but with the intellectual and emotional understanding that the church is a vehicle for assisting in what is largely a very personal journey. Your relationship with the church stops being "What can I get out of this?" and becomes "How can I help others get the most out of this?" which paradoxically propels you further along the Way.

[_NorthboundZax]

I keep hoping to find a different answer than the obvious to this, too. I'll have to mull over M&G's thoughts a bit. There is so rarely anything illuminating at church that lately, staying home to do house/yard work and listening to history & philosophy podcasts has been much more rewarding. Honestly, the most difficult part of attending is not that the lessons/talks have so little to offer, but that any input from me is clearly unwanted by the powers that be. I have no doubt that others there have illuminating things to say and I would enjoy going and participating if there weren't active discouragement to go beyond the stifling. When those hints emerge on occasion, they are too rapidly reined back in to the conformity.

A few weeks ago, we had a combined session on missionary work. The ward mission leader's seven point plan that amounted to: We understand missionary moments are uncomfortable and only one in a thousand missionary moments leads to baptism. The answer to that is that we need to be more willing to be uncomfortable so that we can have many thousands more uncomfortable moments. I noted that the real problem was that missionary moments were inherently awkward as they are treated as one-way streets: we have something wonderful so listen up and whatever you have can now be safely discarded! Read this book and all your questions will be answered! I said that if we were to treat interactions as two-way streets, and genuinely listen to what others have to offer from their spiritual background, not only would the inherent discomfort largely dissipate, but we may become enriched ourselves. Despite positive comments afterwards from a number of people about my suggestion, all the in class responses were along the lines of - well, we do have the Truth(c) so there is little point listening to what they may have and the seven point plan is inspired so it would be wrong to deviate from it.

[_consiglieri]

M&G and NBZ both make good points.

I keep remembering the old scene from Kung Fu--"Snatch the pebble from my hand. Then it will be time for you to leave."

What happens when we can snatch the pebble but Master Po blocks the exit from the Shao-Lin Monastery?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[_Fence Sitter]

M&G and NBZ both make good points.

I keep remembering the old scene from Kung Fu--"Snatch the pebble from my hand. Then it will be time for you to leave."

What happens when we can snatch the pebble but Master Po blocks the exit from the Shao-Lin Monastery?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

I don't know about Master Po blocking the exit but when you can take the pebble you get burned and thrown out into the cold.