Hamblin?????s Unmodulated Blog

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
_Shulem
_Emeritus
Posts: 12072
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:48 am

Re: Hamblin’s Unmodulated Blog

Post by _Shulem »

MsJack wrote:

And if William and William are going to keep on calling me an "anti-Mormon," then I am going to out some private information about my blog and my involvement in LDS apologetics in recent years that is going to make them look very, very bad for attempting to smear me as such.


I think you should do just that. You've already been called an "antiMormon" several times and those words aren't just going to go away. They are etched in cyber stone.

Paul O
_Shulem
_Emeritus
Posts: 12072
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:48 am

Re: Hamblin’s Unmodulated Blog

Post by _Shulem »

MsJack wrote:And if William and William are going to keep on calling me an "anti-Mormon," then I am going to out some private information about my blog and my involvement in LDS apologetics in recent years that is going to make them look very, very bad for attempting to smear me as such.


I might suggest you ask your offender(s) what their definition of an "antiMormon" is and see if you fall under that description. That would be a fair approach. It may simply be a misunderstanding of terms.

Paul O
_Shulem
_Emeritus
Posts: 12072
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:48 am

Re: Hamblin’s Unmodulated Blog

Post by _Shulem »

Kishkumen wrote:Unless the translations of these standard Egyptian documents have been wildly misunderstood by everyone (along with the rest of the Egyptian language and ancient texts), or the allegedly missing papyri are recovered and contain Joseph Smith's Book of Abraham


In such a case an entire system uncovered through science would have to be thrown in the trash, starting with the Rosetta revelations. An entire library of countless works would have to be gutted and the minds of the greatest thinkers in Egyptology would be reduced to rubble.

No. I think we can safely say that Egyptology is founded on real science although it is not perfectly understood and layers of information are constantly being reinterpreted and better understood, but the foundation and basic makup is understood correctly.

The Book of Abraham be damned. It is a work of fiction and the best apologetic efforts to show parallels do not make the book that Joseph invented true any more than any other work of modern fiction. Using parallels is just a tactic they use because they have no other recourse.

Paul O
_Blixa
_Emeritus
Posts: 8381
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:45 pm

Re: Hamblin’s Unmodulated Blog

Post by _Blixa »

Kishkumen wrote:
MsJack wrote:I take issue with being called an "anti-Mormon" simply because I took to task a man who had called Emma Smith a "champion bitch."

And if William and William are going to keep on calling me an "anti-Mormon," then I am going to out some private information about my blog and my involvement in LDS apologetics in recent years that is going to make them look very, very bad for attempting to smear me as such.


You should take issue with this, Jack. I take issue with it. When Bill Hamblin addressed me as an anti-Mormon, I tried to reason with him about his use of the epithet, but he simply ignored me. If the word anti-Mormon is to have any meaning outside of a prejudicial slur, it should not be applied to people like you in particular. Anyone who uses it as badly as Schryver does in applying it to you simply shows the thinking world exactly what kind of numbskull he is.


Hear, hear.
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."
_MsJack
_Emeritus
Posts: 4375
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2008 5:06 am

Re: Hamblin’s Unmodulated Blog

Post by _MsJack »

Shulem wrote:I might suggest you ask your offender(s) what their definition of an "antiMormon" is and see if you fall under that description. That would be a fair approach. It may simply be a misunderstanding of terms.

The FAIRWiki gives the following definition (citing Dan Peterson):

Dan Peterson wrote:The hallmark of anti-Mormonism is an agenda, whether covert or openly expressed, of combating the faith of the Latter-day Saints and opposing their church.

And also says:

1) the prefix anti-
Noun: "A person who is opposed to something, such as a group, policy, proposal, or practice"
Adjective: Opposed
Preposition: Opposed to; against.
2) ...and Mormon, as a colloquial term for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

"Anti-Mormon" . . . is a descriptive term for those whose tactics or desires oppose or fight against the beliefs, members, or practices of the Church.

I don't have an agenda of combating the faith of Mormons or opposing the LDS church. Not even a little bit. None. Whatsoever. I do not try to get Mormons to leave the church just for the sake of getting Mormons out of the church, and I have no desire to see the LDS church cease to exist. Its success in growth, or lack thereof, isn't something that moves me in any direction. I study the LDS church for intellectual as well as missiological reasons (i. e. I'm interested in the best way of sharing my faith with Mormons).

After repeating the FAIRWiki's definition, Pahoran elaborated on our forums:

Pahoran wrote:I think [my definition] captures the phenomenon of anti-Mormonism pretty well: it excludes those who are happy for the Church to exist and to carry out its mission in the world without interference, but who may have some problems with a particular aspect of LDS doctrine or practice;

Good, because that describes me pretty well.

Pahoran wrote:it includes those who may profess to admire some peripheral aspect like the welfare program, but who think the Church should abandon its core truth claims, demolish its temples, and become a common-garden-variety Protestant denomination; In other words, to all intents and purposes, to be destroyed.

As an evangelical Christian, I accept a different set of core truth claims than Latter-day Saints do, and I don't share in Pahoran's disdain for Protestant denominations. Of course I would be ecstatic if the LDS church shifted to an acceptance of what I hold to be the truth, similar to what happened with the Worldwide Church of God (although its transition to mainstream evangelicalism has been problematic).

That isn't a function of opposition to Mormonism though. It's a function of being a member of a missionary faith. And the only way I think that scenario should happen is if the Mormon church and its leaders are sincerely converted. Otherwise I'm pretty happy to coexist with them.

I can't think of any circumstances where I would advocate for LDS temples to be demolished.

If William and William are using broader definitions than the already-broad definitions that I cited above, then the onus is on them to define their terms and cite specific examples of how I fit such a definition. "You dared to complain about how one Mormon apologist was treating women" doesn't count.
"It seems to me that these women were the head (κεφάλαιον) of the church which was at Philippi." ~ John Chrysostom, Homilies on Philippians 13

My Blogs: Weighted Glory | Worlds Without End: A Mormon Studies Roundtable | Twitter
_Garbo
_Emeritus
Posts: 73
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2010 6:41 pm

Re: Hamblin’s Unmodulated Blog

Post by _Garbo »

Kishkumen wrote:I'd be the first person to say that I don't much care for Will Schryver, as he knows, but I take no pleasure in the fact that his work on the Book of Abraham was suppressed for these reasons. Let me be clear: I find his behavior and online persona to be largely boorish and repugnant. Having said that, his scholarship should sink or swim on its own merits, just as Brent's or anyone else's scholarship should.

I was hoping that these fellows would submit their piece for publication elsewhere. If it is a competent estimation of the original length of the scroll, then it would seem to me to be suitable for any number of non-LDS publications. I would recommend that they pursue publication in an Egyptological journal. Perhaps their friend John Gee can recommend an appropriate venue.

Schryver's article was suppressed because he took LSD as a teenager? Are you kidding me? I mean, he's like 40+ years old now. I can see it if he were a convicted felon or something of that sort, but drugs as a teenager? Seems ridiculous to me.

Anyway, how long has he been involved in Book of Abraham studies and how did he manage to even get involved in it in the first place? If I remember right, he only did a couple years of college (Middle East Studies, if I remember right) and does not have any kind of degree. But he told us that he has actually been given access to the First Presidency vault and held the papyri and Book of ABraham manuscripts in his hands, etc. What gives here? Does he have friends in high places?
"You don't have to be married to have a good friend as your partner for life."
(Greta Garbo)
_Kishkumen
_Emeritus
Posts: 21373
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:00 pm

Re: Hamblin’s Unmodulated Blog

Post by _Kishkumen »

Garbo wrote:Schryver's article was suppressed because he took LSD as a teenager? Are you kidding me? I mean, he's like 40+ years old now. I can see it if he were a convicted felon or something of that sort, but drugs as a teenager? Seems ridiculous to me.


That was a bizarre non-sequitur. I never made any such caim.

Garbo wrote:Anyway, how long has he been involved in Book of Abraham studies and how did he manage to even get involved in it in the first place? If I remember right, he only did a couple years of college (Middle East Studies, if I remember right) and does not have any kind of degree. But he told us that he has actually been given access to the First Presidency vault and held the papyri and Book of ABraham manuscripts in his hands, etc. What gives here? Does he have friends in high places?


Obviously he is friends with a number of BYU apologists. I don't know whether they vouched for him or not.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Kevin Graham
_Emeritus
Posts: 13037
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:44 pm

Re: Hamblin’s Unmodulated Blog

Post by _Kevin Graham »

MSJack, you should go ahead and take for granted that they're going to call you an anti-Mormon sooner or later, so go ahead and share with us the goods :)
I'd be the first person to say that I don't much care for Will Schryver, as he knows, but I take no pleasure in the fact that his work on the Book of Abraham was suppressed for these reasons. Let me be clear: I find his behavior and online persona to be largely boorish and repugnant. Having said that, his scholarship should sink or swim on its own merits, just as Brent's or anyone else's scholarship should.

EA, truer words were never spoken. I caught William lying about his own claims over at the MAD board about a year ago and he flipped out when I quoted verbatim, his presentation, an argument he was then trying to say he never made. He and Wade went apeshit and it got so bad the mods had to ban him from the forum. ANd for months and months we were told his cipher stuff was on the edge of publication, and now he is referring to his publication as something addressing the length of the Hor Scroll, which is something entirely different.
Lastly, why does his buddy Edwin Slack not want his name attached to the article? Could it be that Bradford's rejection was purely academic and Slack is well aware of the reasons?

It doesn't surprise me at all that Schryver is getting help from others. Years ago he presented a deceptive article (http://mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/vie ... f=1&t=9323) in a format that looked like it was ready to be published, and then thanked no less than SIX apologists for helping him with it. The funny thing about it was all he did was cut and paste previous comments from John Gee. Why did that take seven people?
_MsJack
_Emeritus
Posts: 4375
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2008 5:06 am

Re: Hamblin’s Unmodulated Blog

Post by _MsJack »

Kevin Graham wrote:MSJack, you should go ahead and take for granted that they're going to call you an anti-Mormon sooner or later, so go ahead and share with us the goods :)

If I do, it will take some time to put together.

But we all know the threads that I really put effort into are well worth waiting for.
"It seems to me that these women were the head (κεφάλαιον) of the church which was at Philippi." ~ John Chrysostom, Homilies on Philippians 13

My Blogs: Weighted Glory | Worlds Without End: A Mormon Studies Roundtable | Twitter
_Kishkumen
_Emeritus
Posts: 21373
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:00 pm

Re: Hamblin’s Unmodulated Blog

Post by _Kishkumen »

MsJack wrote:But we all know the threads that I really put effort into are well worth waiting for.


Amen.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
Post Reply