John Dehlin: Initial Criticisms and Impressions Part III

[_Droopy]

Brigham Young, again:

Mormonism,” so-called, embraces every principle pertaining to life and salvation, for time and eternity…it embraces everything that comes within the range of the understanding of man. If it does not circumscribe everything that is in heaven and on earth, it is not what it purports to be.

[The gospel] embraces all morality, all virtue, all light, all intelligence, all greatness, and all goodness. It introduces a system of laws and ordinances.

If this is true (and this can be known to be true, according to the doctrines of the restored gospel, through the principle of direct, personal revelation), then Dehlin is, not to put too fine a point on it, selling snake oil to doubting and questioning members, not the least of which is by defining Mormonism down to nothing more than one more closely knit fraternal/social organization with a religious gloss among many.

The gospel, however, is a vortex that pulls in and concentrates truth, like the apex of a pyramid concentrates the mind to a single upward facing point. The Church, then, is the institutional – and a highly decentralized one – structure for the application of the gospel in the mortal world – the threefold mission of the Church.

But definitions are only the beginning. Dehlin continues:

We seek spaces where we as Mormons can live lives of intellectual and spiritual integrity, individual conscience, and personal dignity.

That Dehlin here places his “spaces” over against the space provided by the Church and the developing Zion culture within it as if his “space” was a necessary addition to some lack, is telling.

We acknowledge and honor different spiritual paths and modes of religious or non-religious truth-seeking. We respect the convictions of those who subscribe to ideas and beliefs that differ from our own.

This is a banality. So do LDS, and gospel doctrine, indeed, requires this to be the case. Dehlin says this as if he has discovered something that most faithful LDS were unaware of, which, perhaps, is indicative of a fundamental failure on his part to have ever really grappled with and grasped LDS teachings and understood them substantively.

We recognize the confusion, distress, emotional trauma, and social ostracism that people on faith journeys often experience. We seek constructive ways of helping and supporting people, regardless of their ultimate decisions regarding church affiliation or activity.

So does the Church. So do I. And?

We affirm the inherent and equal worth of all human beings.

So does the Church and Church teaching. And?

We acknowledge and honor different spiritual paths and modes of religious or non-religious truth-seeking. We respect the convictions of those who subscribe to ideas and beliefs that differ from our own.

What does this mean? Much of this appears as standard, pop psychological value/cultural relativism that attempts to defuse any and all criticism by taking all sides. Much of what it says, at base, is and always has been central to LDS teaching, so, here again, Dehlin is pretending to be an oasis in a desert that doesn't exist. The one caveat for most faithful LDS would be "honoring" other religious traditions, because of its vagueness. What is a Mormon doing "honoring" Wicca? New Age philosophy? Haitian Voodoo? Can I respect Buddhism without "honoring" or paying it homage while abandoning my own knowledge of the gospel as truth to do so? Must I honor Taoism as a system, or can I honor only aspects of it, and reserve criticism for the rest? Vague, diffuse, intellectually fluffy value relativism of this kind does have its attraction to a certain kind of mind, and perhaps, this is, indeed, Dehlin's core audience.

In addition to explicitly striving to align all operations with the Mormon Stories Shared Values, we endeavor to ensure that the projects we undertake 1) support individuals in Mormon-related faith crises, 2) save marriages, 3) heal families, and 4) celebrate, challenge, and advance Mormon culture in healthy ways.

This is where the real problems set in. Dehlin is here very cleverly cloaking his real intentions (to facilitate exist from either the Church or from the gospel while remaining within the Church) within a warm blanket of saving and healing. And yet, the pattern he presents, his other words and claims, militate strongly against taking this without a nearby salt shaker at the ready.

Next, if I get around to it, we'll take a look at what the people who Dehlin and Mormonstories has "helped" to see what they actually believe him to be doing, and contrast that, perhaps, to what he claims for himself.

[_robuchan]

You guys should learn from the Book of Mormon. Alma, et al, usually took a a few verses or max half a chapter to knock out the Anti-Christs. It takes Greg Smith 100 pages, and it looks like Droopy's going to challenge him for the longest Dehlin review.

[_Droopy]

At the normative levels of attention span and reading comprehension that prevail here, even a couple short paragraphs and a smiley is pushing the envelop.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

At the normative levels of attention span and reading comprehension that prevail here, even a couple short paragraphs and a smiley is pushing the envelop.

Envelope.

Sheesh.

[_Droopy]

At the normative levels of attention span and reading comprehension that prevail here, even a couple short paragraphs and a smiley is pushing the envelope.

Envelope.

Sheesh.

You could while away the hours, conferrin' with the flowers Consultin' with the rain...

[_Cylon]

We seek spaces where we as Mormons can live lives of intellectual and spiritual integrity, individual conscience, and personal dignity.

That Dehlin here places his “spaces” over against the space provided by the Church and the developing Zion culture within it as if his “space” was a necessary addition to some lack, is telling.

Uh, yeah, it is telling that there is a lack of such spaces within the church. If there were not such a lack, then no one would need Mormon Stories and no one would pay attention to it.

We recognize the confusion, distress, emotional trauma, and social ostracism that people on faith journeys often experience. We seek constructive ways of helping and supporting people, regardless of their ultimate decisions regarding church affiliation or activity.

So does the Church. So do I. And?

And the difference is that Dehlin is trying to do something to actually mitigate that confusion, distress, emotional trauma, and social ostracism, besides just saying that prayer and scripture study and obeying your leaders will make everything better.

In addition to explicitly striving to align all operations with the Mormon Stories Shared Values, we endeavor to ensure that the projects we undertake 1) support individuals in Mormon-related faith crises, 2) save marriages, 3) heal families, and 4) celebrate, challenge, and advance Mormon culture in healthy ways.

This is where the real problems set in. Dehlin is here very cleverly cloaking his real intentions (to facilitate exist from either the Church or from the gospel while remaining within the Church) within a warm blanket of saving and healing. And yet, the pattern he presents, his other words and claims, militate strongly against taking this without a nearby salt shaker at the ready.

Even if we accept your assertion of what his "real intentions" are, in order to have any real point you'll need to prove that Mormon Stories does not support Mormons in faith crises, help save their marriages, heal their families, and celebrate Mormon culture. Whether or not doing those things facilitate leaving the church or the gospel is irrelevant to the mission statement of Mormon Stories. And if doing those things does facilitate people leaving the church, then I'd say the church has a problem, not Mormon Stories.

[_Droopy]

We seek spaces where we as Mormons can live lives of intellectual and spiritual integrity, individual conscience, and personal dignity.

That Dehlin here places his “spaces” over against the space provided by the Church and the developing Zion culture within it as if his “space” was a necessary addition to some lack, is telling.

Uh, yeah, it is telling that there is a lack of such spaces within the church. If there were not such a lack, then no one would need Mormon Stories and no one would pay attention to it.

But there are, and a number of them. There isn't any "need" for Mormonstories that Dehlin didn't create himself when Mormonstories became public, and let's not pretend that the person who needs it most was, indeed, its creator.

We recognize the confusion, distress, emotional trauma, and social ostracism that people on faith journeys often experience. We seek constructive ways of helping and supporting people, regardless of their ultimate decisions regarding church affiliation or activity.

So does the Church. So do I. And?

And the difference is that Dehlin is trying to do something to actually mitigate that confusion, distress, emotional trauma, and social ostracism, besides just saying that prayer and scripture study and obeying your leaders will make everything better.

In other words, you like what Dehlin is doing, you don't like the Church, and so there.

Thanks.

Even if we accept your assertion of what his "real intentions" are, in order to have any real point you'll need to prove that Mormon Stories does not support Mormons in faith crises,

Sure it supports Mormons during a crisis of faith, but its core mission is to resolve it in favor of either distancing oneself from the Church's central doctrines while remaining a technical member, or of exit from the Church entirely. I am against both, and I am against Dehlin encouraging and supporting either.

help save their marriages, heal their families,

On the next Oprah...

and celebrate Mormon culture.

"Mormon culture" is a wonderful thing, however, it will not save and exalt us in the Celestial Kingdom. Only baptism for remission of sins, reception of the Holy Ghost by one having authority, the higher ordinances of the priesthood to be found in the House of the Lord, and endurance to the end can accomplish that.

Whether or not doing those things facilitate leaving the church or the gospel is irrelevant to the mission statement of Mormon Stories. And if doing those things does facilitate people leaving the church, then I'd say the church has a problem, not Mormon Stories.

No, in fact its central to the mission of Mormonstories. It is the mission of Mormonstories to encourage, support, and facilitate either literal or intellectual and psychological apostasy from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints.

[_Cylon]

But there are, and a number of them. There isn't any "need" for Mormonstories that Dehlin didn't create himself when Mormonstories became public, and let's not pretend that the person who needs it most was, indeed, its creator.

Look, this is self-evident, Droopy. If there were truly no need for it, then no one would pay any attention to it. Obviously Mormon Stories did something differently from the other resources that were out there at the time.

And the difference is that Dehlin is trying to do something to actually mitigate that confusion, distress, emotional trauma, and social ostracism, besides just saying that prayer and scripture study and obeying your leaders will make everything better.

In other words, you like what Dehlin is doing, you don't like the Church, and so there.

Thanks.

In other words, you happily accept that life is simple enough that prayer and scripture study and obeying your leaders will make everything better.

If you can't even break out of your paradigm enough to admit there might sometimes be situations where it's more complicated than that, then there's really no sense discussing it any more with you.

help save their marriages, heal their families,

On the next Oprah...

Good to know you think the pain of people's families being torn apart by religious differences is a subject worthy of mockery. Gee, I have no idea why someone would have reservations about going to someone like you for help with these issues.

"Mormon culture" is a wonderful thing, however, it will not save and exalt us in the Celestial Kingdom. Only baptism for remission of sins, reception of the Holy Ghost by one having authority, the higher ordinances of the priesthood to be found in the House of the Lord, and endurance to the end can accomplish that.

And I'm sure that's a wonderfully persuasive argument to those who admittedly don't believe in the existence of the Celestial Kingdom.

Whether or not doing those things facilitate leaving the church or the gospel is irrelevant to the mission statement of Mormon Stories. And if doing those things does facilitate people leaving the church, then I'd say the church has a problem, not Mormon Stories.

No, in fact its central to the mission of Mormonstories. It is the mission of Mormonstories to encourage, support, and facilitate either literal or intellectual and psychological apostasy from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints.

Well, you definitely haven't made your case for that yet. You've presented no evidence that Dehlin's real intentions are to lead people away from the church, you've only brought up the fact that he refuses to condemn people who leave, as if that's an argument in and of itself. Why should I believe your armchair psychology analysis of his inner thoughts over his proclaimed mission statement?

[_Jason Bourne]

We acknowledge and honor different spiritual paths and modes of religious or non-religious truth-seeking. We respect the convictions of those who subscribe to ideas and beliefs that differ from our own.

This is a banality. So do LDS, and gospel doctrine, indeed, requires this to be the case. Dehlin says this as if he has discovered something that most faithful LDS were unaware of, which, perhaps, is indicative of a fundamental failure on his part to have ever really grappled with and grasped LDS teachings and understood them substantively.

Is it wrong for Dehlin to affirm something the LDS Church already practices? So what if he reaffirms it? Why get your gander up over this one?

We recognize the confusion, distress, emotional trauma, and social ostracism that people on faith journeys often experience. We seek constructive ways of helping and supporting people, regardless of their ultimate decisions regarding church affiliation or activity.

So does the Church. So do I. And?

Oh this is rich? You do? Well not on internet message boards. You seek to root out and beat up anyone who does not buy your monolithic version of Mormonism. Show me anything here you have done to support questioning members?

And what does the Church do to help? Ok I can tell you what. There are good bishops and local leaders that can be helpful and caring to questioning members. But it it the bishop/SP lottery risk. You never know what you will get.

We affirm the inherent and equal worth of all human beings.

So does the Church and Church teaching. And?

And once again can't Dehlin reaffirm something the Church does? Did he say the Church does not do this?

We acknowledge and honor different spiritual paths and modes of religious or non-religious truth-seeking. We respect the convictions of those who subscribe to ideas and beliefs that differ from our own.

What does this mean? Much of this appears as standard, pop psychological value/cultural relativism that attempts to defuse any and all criticism by taking all sides. Much of what it says, at base, is and always has been central to LDS teaching, so, here again, Dehlin is pretending to be an oasis in a desert that doesn't exist. The one caveat for most faithful LDS would be "honoring" other religious traditions, because of its vagueness. What is a Mormon doing "honoring" Wicca? New Age philosophy? Haitian Voodoo? Can I respect Buddhism without "honoring" or paying it homage while abandoning my own knowledge of the gospel as truth to do so? Must I honor Taoism as a system, or can I honor only aspects of it, and reserve criticism for the rest? Vague, diffuse, intellectually fluffy value relativism of this kind does have its attraction to a certain kind of mind, and perhaps, this is, indeed, Dehlin's core audience.

Nah Droopy YOU can't honor anything that does not fit into your narrow world view. That is painfully obvious by what you write here.

In addition to explicitly striving to align all operations with the Mormon Stories Shared Values, we endeavor to ensure that the projects we undertake 1) support individuals in Mormon-related faith crises, 2) save marriages, 3) heal families, and 4) celebrate, challenge, and advance Mormon culture in healthy ways.

This is where the real problems set in. Dehlin is here very cleverly cloaking his real intentions (to facilitate exist from either the Church or from the gospel while remaining within the Church) within a warm blanket of saving and healing. And yet, the pattern he presents, his other words and claims, militate strongly against taking this without a nearby salt shaker at the ready.

You continue to misrepresent Dehlin.