Peterson, Hamblin, Schryver Online Antics: Request for Help

[_Kishkumen]

Cicero - Garbo first registered here over 1.5 years ago. I still remember her introductory posts. She may be an infrequent poster, but she isn't new.

I'm not going to protect posters (new or otherwise) from having their ideas critiqued. This is a discussion board; that's what we do.

If people are rude to her or attack her personally, there's a good chance I'll speak up against that. But I'm not going to say, "Oh, beastie and EA and Chap, how dare you respectfully engage her arguments! Shame on you!" (In fact, it was Garbo who engaged in ad hominem by suggesting that the people calling William's behavior misogynist are sexually repressed or inexperienced with harsher examples of misogyny in their personal lives. For my own part, certainly neither is the case. But that's really none of Garbo's business.)

I personally hope that she does stay. But I also hope she grows thicker skin for having her ideas critiqued. Having multiple people disagree with what you say isn't the end of the world.

+1

[_Madison54]

If you can't handle having your ideas critiqued without calling it a "gang beating," then maybe you're right. Maybe this isn't a good place for you.

Sorry Jack, I really like your posts here but I can't let that slide. That sounds way too much like something Deborah, whyme or CA Steinman would say on MD&D and I thought this board was supposed to be different but maybe I was wrong. Maybe you don't care, but you're not going to encourage much fresh blood on this board with comments like that.

Garbo (like me) is fairly new here. Some of you have been posting here (or elsewhere) for years and so maybe you can't relate to how it can be fairly intimidating to jump in and participate when you don't have several years of experience and/or know a lot of the participants in real life. That is why Garbo is sensitive here in my opinion. I have noticed that the "Gods" here do have a tendency to ignore newbies, or worse, to pounce on newbies and call them misinformed because they don't know someone's long posting history or accuse them of being a sock puppet of some other long-time participant.

Maybe after 7 years it can't be helped, but do you guys want this board to just be an echo chamber for long-time participants to keep rehashing the same fights over and over again?

I really hope that Garbo ignores Jack's remark and sticks around. I have enjoyed her posts and I like having new perspectives to think about.

I am also more of a newbee or outsider on here and I disagree with your assessment, Cicero. But please don't leave!

Yes, most of my comments are ignored and I honestly do get what you're saying about the in group on here....but that's only natural when some have been together for a long time and are familiar with each other.

I love reading Ms.Jack's comments (her thread on Schryver is actually what brought me to this board) and she's someone I'd like to know in real life. I 100% agree with her response to Garbo. She calls things as she sees them and has no problem when someone disagrees with her.

I don't feel that anyone ganged up on Garbo. They disagreed and told her why. I hope she'll stay around as I enjoy her comments.

[_Darth J]

Cicero - Garbo first registered here over 1.5 years ago. I still remember her introductory posts. She may be an infrequent poster, but she isn't new.

I'm not going to protect posters (new or otherwise) from having their ideas critiqued. This is a discussion board; that's what we do.

If people are rude to her or attack her personally, there's a good chance I'll speak up against that. But I'm not going to say, "Oh, beastie and EA and Chap, how dare you respectfully engage her arguments! Shame on you!" (In fact, it was Garbo who engaged in ad hominem by suggesting that the people calling William's behavior misogynist are sexually repressed or inexperienced with harsher examples of misogyny in their personal lives. For my own part, certainly neither is the case. But that's really none of Garbo's business.)

I personally hope that she does stay. But I also hope she grows thicker skin for having her ideas critiqued. Having multiple people disagree with what you say isn't the end of the world.

+1

I would also agree with MsJack, except she's a girl, and I don't want her cooties on me.

[_Garbo]

Do you really feel like you've been targeted for a gang beating? Seriously? Why?

That was probably not a good choice of words on my part. It's not so much a "beating" as it is a kind of "group-enforced orthodoxy".

I hope you will respond to my question about whether or not you would at least agree that Will's behavior was offensive.

What behavior?

You see, that's the real question here. From what I can tell, it's the question implicit in the OP, too. The most offensive things Will is accused of saying are the things he has denied having said. Is he lying about those things? He very well could be. I don't know for sure. But even if he is, we're talking about three things he said in .......... how many years?

No, I don't think making fairly innocuous jokes about breast reduction surgery and cleavage are all that offensive. Should I? Well, according to the consensus of opinion here, I guess I should. And by God, if I don't then I will be subjected to a kind of subtle "group punishment" (as Carton termed it here) until I "get my mind right" (I love Cool Hand Luke. Paul Newman was such a gorgeous hunk of man!).

Let me emphasize my main point again: I have serious objections to Will and his apologetics, but I think it is a big mistake by not keeping the discussion focused on his arguments instead of his allegedly being a misogynist, a "sexist pig", etc.

I admit I'm probably a little biased in the sense that, unlike most or all of the people here, I have known him in real life. I don't agree with his views on Mormonism, but I also don't believe he is a misogynist or a sexist pig. His daughter that I got to know when I was a YW leader in the ward was one of the most impressive young women I have come across. She would stand up, in class, against any YW leaders who would say things about how the girls' highest aspiration should be to have ten kids and keep the house clean and have dinner waiting on the table for when their husbands returned home from work, etc. That takes guts.

Will also was the one who introduced me to the writing of Camille Paglia, and now I'm a very devoted fan of hers. (Will actually quoted her in Gospel Doctrine class one day, but didn't tell anyone that he was citing a liberal lesbian feminist! )

Anyway, in many ways, he can be an arrogant, too-much-self-assured asshole. And I think he is bat**** crazy when it comes to most of his religious beliefs. But I don't think he's a misogynistic, sexist pig. And I don't agree that the "evidence" that MsJack assembled in her misogyny thread demonstrates otherwise.

OK, now I really will say no more on this topic. I think I'm going to take a break from this place for a week or two. I have loved participating here and I have lots of respect for a good many of you. I think this is the most intellectually stimulating Mormon-related message board on the internet. I don't think there is any doubt that the level of education, advanced degrees, etc., is higher on this board than any of the others I have seen. However, I also think that this place can sometimes tend to enforce their own brand of political correctness and God help the person who violates the PC-code that has been established here!

[_MsJack]

The most offensive things Will is accused of saying are the things he has denied having said. Is he lying about those things?

Yes. Quite blatantly.

But I don't agree that the most offensive things he said are the things he denies having said.

But I don't think he's a misogynistic, sexist pig. And I don't agree that the "evidence" that MsJack assembled in her misogyny thread demonstrates otherwise.

The evidence I assembled in my thread was meant to demonstrate that his behavior on this forum has been misogynist. It said nothing about how he behaves in his personal life. To point out what a great guy he is in "real life" (because how you treat people via the Internet isn't "real life," apparently) and how nicely he treats his wife and daughters is an exercise in irrelevance.

And by God, if I don't then I will be subjected to a kind of subtle "group punishment" (as Carton termed it here) until I "get my mind right" (I love Cool Hand Luke. Paul Newman was such a gorgeous hunk of man!). [SNIP] I also think that this place can sometimes tend to enforce their own brand of political correctness and God help the person who violates the PC-code that has been established here!

I hope your recovery from this horrible ordeal of having had your ideas respectfully critiqued isn't too strenuous for you.

[_Juggler Vain]

Let's just let this be my parting comment on this thread, and maybe from this board altogether, since I'm absolutely disgusted by the way anyone who says anything contrary to the "received wisdom" is immediately targeted for a gang beating.

You're not alone.

It appears that Carton's last post was nearly a month ago.

Yeah, a common thing on the wild internets, especially on emotional, debate-heavy boards like this. Another example:

Buffalo's last post was May 31, after this.

I'm sure you weren't implying, Ray, that it has something to do with this board accepting "apostate" or "anti-mormon" viewpoints, since the people taking the beatings in these examples were critical of the LDS Church too. A similar thing happens on MDDB sometimes. I think you just have to cross the dominant personalities at the right moment, and the gloves can come right off.

-JV

[_Chap]

Thanks Garbo.

But apart from people not agreeing with you, I don't see that anything bad has happened to you.

I agree, by the way, that Schryver is probably a different person in real life from the image he presents on this board.

However, his past behaviour here is not just a matter of 'two or three things'. Please have a look at MsJack's major posting of his collected rudeness to women. He has a long, long record of online nastiness, and more than one man has found that repellent enough to ask him to stop - in one case (not me) challenging him to meet to fight it out in a gym. (I feel that is going a bit too far, myself, and in any case risked being a challenge that the issuer knew would not be accepted.)

You are free to say that you don't mind that sort of thing being said to you. But many others do mind, and mind a lot. They are just as entitled to their view as you are.

[_Madison54]

in my opinion, when a person acts one way at church or when others are watching them and another way posting or hiding behind a keyboard, the later behavior is the more representative of their genuine character.

Just sayin....

[_Chap]

in my opinion, when a person acts one way at church or when others are watching them and another way posting or hiding behind a keyboard, the later behavior is the more representative of their genuine character.

Just sayin....

I have to say too that when a man treats women respectfully in the context of his church, and is foul-mouthed with 'apostate' women on a board he characterizes as a 'trailer park', a certain well-known pattern of sexual release by 'respectable' men is being played out in front of our eyes.

[_Cicero]

I am also more of a newbee or outsider on here and I disagree with your assessment, Cicero. But please don't leave!

Yes, most of my comments are ignored and I honestly do get what you're saying about the in group on here....but that's only natural when some have been together for a long time and are familiar with each other.

I love reading Ms.Jack's comments (her thread on Schryver is actually what brought me to this board) and she's someone I'd like to know in real life. I 100% agree with her response to Garbo. She calls things as she sees them and has no problem when someone disagrees with her.

I don't feel that anyone ganged up on Garbo. They disagreed and told her why. I hope she'll stay around as I enjoy her comments.

Madison: I was careful to only highlight one section of Jack's post that I didn't like. For the record, I think anyone who would use the perjoratives that Will has has applied to Emma Smith (whichever one he used) is a vile person (and yes, I would include Brigham Young).

And don't worry at all about critiquing my posts. I argue all day for a living (I'm a member of that certain profession that Shakespear wanted to exterminate).