The Return of Moroni? or, RLDS Conference 1895

[_Uncle Dale]

I'm not sure whether anybody here will be interested or not,
but I'm investigating the possibility that Joseph Smith's sister
Katherine claimed a visitation of Moroni in April of 1895:





http://olivercowdery.com/smithhome/BroB ... timony.htm


UD

[_Uncle Dale]

I'm not sure whether anybody here will be interested or not,
but I'm investigating the possibility that Joseph Smith's sister
Katherine claimed a visitation of Moroni in April of 1895:





http://olivercowdery.com/smithhome/BroB ... timony.htm


UD

Why would anybody go to the trouble of researching the activities of
the siblings of Joseph Smith? After all, according to the Mormons, these
family members were apostates -- who left the One True Church...

So, the LDS will not be interested in what the Smith family members did
after, say, about 1846-47, when they refused to move to Utah and there
support Brigham Young and his theocratic rule in "Deseret."

During the late 1840s and into the 1850s the Mormon leaders in Utah
continued to pay some attention to Joseph's brother William Smith --
perhaps because they blamed him for interfering with the statehood
process and keeping Utah in the territorial status for many years.

And, when those Utah leaders unloaded upon William Smith, the picture
they rhetorically painted in their discourses was one of a terrible, vile
impostor of an "Apostle" -- a knave deserving of no respect or honor.

But they had previously sustained him as a "special witness for Jesus
Christ" -- as a saint ordained to be a "prophet, seer & revelator." So
long as Joseph Smith was still alive, his brother William was seated with
the "Lord's Anointed," recognized as holding the same holy "keys" as
did the rest of "The Twelve" -- and blessed to be their chief Patriarch.

So -- who was telling lies?

That is the question I keep asking myself, when looking back at the
words and acts of family members such as William Smith and his
sister Katherine Smith. I try to use reports on their behavior to
help provide me with insight into the "royal" Smith family -- and thus,
perhaps, also some insight into the motives and methods of Joseph.

Joseph was a far, far more accomplished con man, than were his siblings.
He could tell a lie and make it stick for decades -- William, Katherine
(and their mother, Lucy) were lesser liars, and their fabrications and
whitewashes of early Mormonism never held up as well as Joseph's.

So, I think we can look at William and Katherine, to gain some knowledge
about how the Smith family's religious con game functioned. They say
that "the apple does not fall far from the tree" in such cases, and I
think that the activities of this long-lived brother and sister can help
us understand how Joseph Smith, jr. himself operated in deluding folks
and in covering up his lies and crimes.

In April of 1895, Katherine Smith Salisbury testified at the RLDS Conference
that an angel had appeared to her, carrying a message to the members of
that Church -- my church; the religion I grew up in; within the same Missouri
chapel where I myself attended Reorganized LDS General Conferences.

The leaders of 1895 had sense enough to suppress the old lady's lies
and/or delusions -- before they could harm other members. Would to heaven
that they might have done the same with William Smith's Mormon lies --
and admitted also the deceptions of Emma Smith and her infamous husband.

I've left Community of Christ -- but I can't leave it alone. My coming to grips
with the Smith family's religious con game was painful.... and it still is.

Uncle Dale

[_Tobin]

Uncle Dale,

Simple answer. Both organizations are man-made and in varying degrees of apostasy. The key to the gospel and what Mormonism (I'm not saying LDS or CoC is any more true than the other) is about is really seeking and speaking with God and doing what God asks you to do. The Church of God (Kingdom of God) is not either of those organizations. It's a completely different animal and as long as we follow God and belong to THAT church (his kingdom), we'll be fine.

[_Drifting]

Uncle Dale,

Simple answer. Both organizations are man-made and in varying degrees of apostasy. The key to the gospel and what Mormonism (I'm not saying LDS or CoC is any more true than the other) is about is really seeking and speaking with God and doing what God asks you to do.

What if God tells you to do something not in alignment with Mormon beliefs?

[Bedlamite]

Uncle Dale,

Simple answer. Both organizations are man-made and in varying degrees of apostasy. The key to the gospel and what Mormonism (I'm not saying LDS or CoC is any more true than the other) is about is really seeking and speaking with God and doing what God asks you to do. The Church of God (Kingdom of God) is not either of those organizations. It's a completely different animal and as long as we follow God and belong to THAT church (his kingdom), we'll be fine.

Yes, I understand that the Smith family was "man-made," in the sense
that its members were responding to the human society around them
and to their own genetic predispositions. Two of the sons, Samuel H.
and Don Carlos, were well-spoken-of, even by their "gentile" neighbors.
So, their "man-made" natures could perhaps rise above the inclination
to lie about false supernatural manifestations, etc.

As for Sister Katherine's 1895 Mormon testimony, the editors of the
Deseret News, in far off Salt Lake City, dismissed it all with a
brief summary, copied from a non-LDS source, and then -- so far as
I can determine -- the LDS never said another word about the
testimony until 2002, when BYU Studies published her account
of her brother's early visions, etc.

I think that a careful investigation of surviving sources would reveal
that Katherine Salisbury Smith claimed to have been visited by the
same Angel Moroni as she said (during the same series of testimonies,
given in April, 1895) appeared to her famous brother Joseph, Jr.

Personally, I do not accept Katherine's account of an angelic visitation;
nor the oracle communicated by her -- of God commanding that the
Saints follow the Reorganized LDS Prophet Joseph Smith III in all things,
without questioning or disobeying.

I suppose that modern Mormons would also have to reject that 1895
"revelation" as having been "man made," because it was voiced by an
apostate and upheld the leader of an apostate splinter group.

UD

[_Tobin]

Uncle Dale,

Simple answer. Both organizations are man-made and in varying degrees of apostasy. The key to the gospel and what Mormonism (I'm not saying LDS or CoC is any more true than the other) is about is really seeking and speaking with God and doing what God asks you to do.

What if God tells you to do something not in alignment with Mormon beliefs?

I think it is more important to speak with God and do what is right. The point of Mormonism is to lead one to God. After that, do what is right, good and true. That is all you CAN do.

[_Tobin]

Uncle Dale,

Simple answer. Both organizations are man-made and in varying degrees of apostasy. The key to the gospel and what Mormonism (I'm not saying LDS or CoC is any more true than the other) is about is really seeking and speaking with God and doing what God asks you to do. The Church of God (Kingdom of God) is not either of those organizations. It's a completely different animal and as long as we follow God and belong to THAT church (his kingdom), we'll be fine.

Personally, I do not accept Katherine's account of an angelic visitation;
nor the oracle communicated by her -- of God commanding that the
Saints follow the Reorganized LDS Prophet Joseph Smith III in all things,
without questioning or disobeying.

I suppose that modern Mormons would also have to reject that 1895
"revelation" as having been "man made," because it was voiced by an
apostate and upheld the leader of an apostate splinter group.

That is between you and God. I personally don't care if someone is an apostate or has never been a Mormon. If they speak the truth, we should embrace it. I accept MLK Jr and Gandhi as prophets and feel what they said is true and worthwhile. I think that is the true spirit of belief in God and shows a respect for the truth.

[_Uncle Dale]

...a respect for the truth.

Pontius Pilate: "What is truth?"

Joseph of Arimathea: "The truth in which I believe"

Apocryphal Tales


UD

[_Mary]

He commenced, and when he got the record partly translated, persecution rose there, and he wrote for David Whitmer to come and take him to his house. David came, and he asked how he should carry the plates, and he was told they would be there when he got there, in the garden.

When he got to Father Whitmer's he found the records, as he had been told he would, and there he finished translating the Book of Mormon, and there is where the three witnesses were showed the plates by the angel, that turned the leaves over one by one.

This is new to me... Is she suggesting that the records were taken by the angel Moroni and were buried in David Whitmer's garden ready for Joseph when he got there?

[_Uncle Dale]

He commenced, and when he got the record partly translated, persecution rose there, and he wrote for David Whitmer to come and take him to his house. David came, and he asked how he should carry the plates, and he was told they would be there when he got there, in the garden.

When he got to Father Whitmer's he found the records, as he had been told he would, and there he finished translating the Book of Mormon, and there is where the three witnesses were showed the plates by the angel, that turned the leaves over one by one.

This is new to me... Is she suggesting that the records were taken by the angel Moroni and were buried in David Whitmer's garden ready for Joseph when he got there?

That's what it sounds like; right?

Joseph Smith is getting ready to move from Harmony to Fayette, and in the process
he relates that the original text for the Book of Mormon would be taken to the
Whitmer residence by someone else -- neither he nor the Whitmers need worry
about that potential problem. The Nephite Record would be at the Whitmer farm
when Joseph got there.

And David Whitmer's mother reportedly encountered the being who was in charge
of bringing that original Book of Mormon text to her husband's farm.

David Whitmer himself supposedly saw the strange fellow, who said he was on
his way "to Cumorah." Later David claimed to have seen the stone box in which
the Nephite records had been stored for centuries.

Question -- Did Oliver Cowdery ride in the same wagon as Smith and their
Whitmer driver, all the way from Harmony to the Whitmer farm? Can his
whereabouts be accounted for at that time?

Follow-up question -- Did Oliver Cowdery carry the transcribed (dictated)
Book of Mormon manuscript to the Whitmer farm?

And, while we're at it, perhaps we should verify the whereabouts of
Sidney Rigdon and Parley P. Pratt during Smith's relocation to Fayette.

UD