I HAVE THE POWER!

[_consiglieri]

There are two instances in the Book of Mormon where an individual speaks of exercising the power of God which is in them, both of them in the Book of Alma.

The two accounts are juxtaposed in such a way as to invite comparison.

In one instance, the power of God is not exercised; though we are assured it resides in the individual, it lays dormant by choice.

In the other instance, the power of God is exercised.

The strange part is the exercise or non-exercise of God’s power seems counterintuitive, defeats our expectations, and leaves us at a loss as to how to account for why the power of God was exercised in the one instance and not exercised in the second.

The two accounts I speak of are that of Alma and Amulek in the city of Ammonihah (Alma 14) and Ammon at the waters of Sebus (Alma 17).

Ammon shows forth the power of God which is in him (17:29) to the purpose of “restoring these flocks unto the king.”

Alma declines to “exercise the power of God which is in us” to save women and children converts from being burned alive. (Alma 14:10).

What are we to make of a book that juxtaposes these stories?

Does God really care more for gathering flocks than saving the lives of innocent women and children from a hideous death?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[_Cylon]

We went over the Alma and Amulek story in Gospel Doctrine a couple weeks ago, and it really bothered me. Even more than the burning alive part, though, was the reason Alma gave for why the Lord didn't save them. It was so their blood would rise up against the perpetrators in the Judgment Day. So not only was God willing to let them die, he was willing to let them die just so he could make the other bastards suffer more for their crimes. I'm not trying to justify the murderers or anything, but that doesn't sound like a very merciful God to me.

[_zeezrom]

Saving burning people would not produce enough converts. Saving a flock, on the other hand, caused the conversion of a king. It's all about the numbers for folks living during the Second Great Awakening.

[_Nightlion]

We went over the Alma and Amulek story in Gospel Doctrine a couple weeks ago, and it really bothered me. Even more than the burning alive part, though, was the reason Alma gave for why the Lord didn't save them. It was so their blood would rise up against the perpetrators in the Judgment Day. So not only was God willing to let them die, he was willing to let them die just so he could make the other bastards suffer more for their crimes. I'm not trying to justify the murderers or anything, but that doesn't sound like a very merciful God to me.

Mercy is only ONE of the attributes of God. He also has wisdom, justice, judgment, truth, Almighty power, vengeance, wrath, fury, tolerance, charity, love.

Sounds like you insist God be always merciful or he cannot be God. What? Neither could Alma know all the mind of the Lord in the matter. You are commanding God. If that were the ticket then God would have to save in ever situation. The juxtaposition is meaningless.

[_Cylon]

We went over the Alma and Amulek story in Gospel Doctrine a couple weeks ago, and it really bothered me. Even more than the burning alive part, though, was the reason Alma gave for why the Lord didn't save them. It was so their blood would rise up against the perpetrators in the Judgment Day. So not only was God willing to let them die, he was willing to let them die just so he could make the other bastards suffer more for their crimes. I'm not trying to justify the murderers or anything, but that doesn't sound like a very merciful God to me.

Mercy is only ONE of the attributes of God. He also has wisdom, justice, judgment, truth, Almighty power, vengeance, wrath, fury, tolerance, charity, love.

Sounds like you insist God be always merciful or he cannot be God. What? Neither could Alma know all the mind of the Lord in the matter. You are commanding God. If that were the ticket then God would have to save in ever situation. The juxtaposition is meaningless.

No, it's not about him exhibiting one of his other traits, it's about him exhibiting traits he's not supposed to have. Letting a bunch of people die so you can punish the people who killed them is cruel and sadistic, which is incompatible with being merciful. And if you say Alma was wrong about God's reasoning, then you're rejecting scripture just as much as I am when I say I don't believe God would do that.

[_Nightlion]

Mercy is only ONE of the attributes of God. He also has wisdom, justice, judgment, truth, Almighty power, vengeance, wrath, fury, tolerance, charity, love.

Sounds like you insist God be always merciful or he cannot be God. What? Neither could Alma know all the mind of the Lord in the matter. You are commanding God. If that were the ticket then God would have to save in ever situation. The juxtaposition is meaningless.

No, it's not about him exhibiting one of his other traits, it's about him exhibiting traits he's not supposed to have. Letting a bunch of people die so you can punish the people who killed them is cruel and sadistic, which is incompatible with being merciful. And if you say Alma was wrong about God's reasoning, then you're rejecting scripture just as much as I am when I say I don't believe God would do that.

You are completely flipped. Just because Alma was there did not obligate God. If you have a sick child and he dies you might at times wonder if it was God's will that he die. Does that make God a murderer? That is the logical conclusion from your argument. God is.............wait for it...........God. You have made that meaningless and so God is just another guy to you. If he were to take you child and you revile him that he killed your child you are making a grave mistake thinking God is culpable in your judgment. He is not.

[_Darth J]

Ammon shows forth the power of God which is in him (17:29) to the purpose of “restoring these flocks unto the king.”

Alma declines to “exercise the power of God which is in us” to save women and children converts from being burned alive. (Alma 14:10).

What are we to make of a book that juxtaposes these stories?

Does God really care more for gathering flocks than saving the lives of innocent women and children from a hideous death?

Consiglieri:

Can I float an idea here? Maybe this demonstration of God's priorities is some uncanny foreshadowing of where the modern LDS Church would be someday.

[_moksha]

Should we let our light shine or keep the lid sealed to prevent the mutagenic effects of exposure?

It might depend on whether you have sesame or olive oil in that bottle with a picture of a snake.

Flocks are best restored to the King with a field of green broadleaf plants and a leap of faith.

[_Cylon]

You are completely flipped. Just because Alma was there did not obligate God. If you have a sick child and he dies you might at times wonder if it was God's will that he die. Does that make God a murderer? That is the logical conclusion from your argument. God is.............wait for it...........God. You have made that meaningless and so God is just another guy to you. If he were to take you child and you revile him that he killed your child you are making a grave mistake thinking God is culpable in your judgment. He is not.

How many times do I have to repeat myself, Nightlion? It's not about God letting innocent people die. Obviously he does that all the time. It's about his motivation for doing so. If Alma is right about God's motivation, then he's a sick bastard, and if Alma's wrong, then there's not a lot of reason to listen to the story at all, because the motivation for Alma's actions goes away, and so does any supposed moral we're supposed to learn.

[_Tobin]

There are a few principles at play here. The power of the God should never be exercised unless the Lord indicates to those in authority that it should. When the servants of the Lord are confronted with those that are unwilling to believe and the hardness of their hearts is such that no demonstration of power by the Lord will chasten them save that the wicked be destroyed, the Lord will suffer the wicked to fully ripen in their wickedness for a time and then they will be destroyed. As a result, the servants of the Lord are often constrained and suffer as this goes on. Usually it is the case the wicked destroy themselves or they fight among themselves so no action by the Lord is necessary.

In the other case, we see an opportunity with a people that might be willing to repent and seek the Lord. In this case, the servants of the Lord are not constrained and the power of God can be freely exercised.

This principle is in effect today. Many of the gifts of the spirit and power of God are not manifest or constrained in the Church and the world because of our pride and wickedness and the hardness of our hearts. It is only through faith, humility, kindness and goodness that such power can truly be manifest.