DiscussMormonism.com

Nightlion wrote:I felt some empathy for John Dehlin hearing him recount the injustice of having to take out endowments at 19. It is a serious spiritual abuse to ask for the all in all of someone who was never taught how to come unto Christ and make an acceptable sacrifice of their whole soul in the depths of humility offer their heart, might, mind and strength to repent sufficiently so as to receive the promise of the Father even the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost making them fit and able to enter into all the oaths, promises, covenants and obligations of the temple. Indeed how could the Church teach people to come unto Christ since they administer the sacrament, which is a validation of HAVING come unto Christ to everyone without discrimination. Woe unto them because the condemnation of the Father will darken their minds and how can they see ever again?

These count for serious spiritual abuse. Forced by peer expectations it even counts for communal victimization.

Taking lightly the seriousness of all of Christ's commandments can only result in great spiritual abuse. Why do leaders escape culpability?

Every noble and great spirit will eventually baulk at being put upon abusively. They will sense it unless they are hip with hypocrisy.

Tobin wrote:

Nightlion wrote:I felt some empathy for John Dehlin hearing him recount the injustice of having to take out endowments at 19. It is a serious spiritual abuse to ask for the all in all of someone who was never taught how to come unto Christ and make an acceptable sacrifice of their whole soul in the depths of humility offer their heart, might, mind and strength to repent sufficiently so as to receive the promise of the Father even the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost making them fit and able to enter into all the oaths, promises, covenants and obligations of the temple. Indeed how could the Church teach people to come unto Christ since they administer the sacrament, which is a validation of HAVING come unto Christ to everyone without discrimination. Woe unto them because the condemnation of the Father will darken their minds and how can they see ever again?

These count for serious spiritual abuse. Forced by peer expectations it even counts for communal victimization.

Taking lightly the seriousness of all of Christ's commandments can only result in great spiritual abuse. Why do leaders escape culpability?

Every noble and great spirit will eventually balk at being put upon abusively. They will sense it unless they are hip with hypocrisy.

So as I read this, you are saying it is spiritual abuse to take out your endowment? I don't know if I could agree with that. I could agree it is shocking, especially for the uninitiated. But abuse?!? I don't think so. It has taken me decades to somewhat understand what the endowment is and what it is not. I certainly can understand how it can surprise those who experience it for the first time and why those outside the Church often make fun of it. It is because they don't see it for what it is and the silly and often unnecessary rituals Joseph Smith (and others) employed often get in the way of what is truly important.

Nomomo wrote:The doctrine that your family members can be with you in heaven if they are also Mormons sealed to you with mumbo jumbo silly ass nonsense rituals. This is major spiritual abuse!

Valentinus wrote:I thought Lavina Anderson and Janice Allred defined the specific definitions of spiritual/ecclesiastical abuse when they published the Mormon Alliance Case Reports Vol. I.

Now...if I could only find that list of definitions....

Nightlion wrote:

Nomomo wrote:The doctrine that your family members can be with you in heaven if they are also Mormons sealed to you with mumbo jumbo silly ass nonsense rituals. This is major spiritual abuse!

NO! That's not it. Not that you care slightly but abuse is to defile and attempt to force you to be less than what you could be. It diminishes you personally. And in this sense it is accomplished by manipulation of spiritual realities. To wit:

Incompetent LDS administrators ignore commandments of Jesus Christ and rather than carefully see to it that ONLY those who are made partakers of the power of the gospel are given sacrament and advanced ordinances, they McGospel these out willy nilly to everyone for money and position and authority and the praise of the world that they are the GREAAAAAT builders of the Kingdom of God upon the earth.

NOW these pathetic victims are eating and drinking damnation to their souls beoming blind and deaf and dumb because this error has caused the condemnation of the Father to rest upon them darkening their minds. This is according to the commandment Christ received of his Father before he left the Nephites when he visited them.

I know you particularly would not value this the same and calling it abuse to you might be silly.
So too is it abuse to send those who still fail to bring forth fruit meet for the Father's kingdom into the temple to defile it withal and heap up blasphemy upon blasphemy as they pretend to be worthy to receive that which they have no right to by commandment of Jesus Christ that NO UNCLEAN THING shall be suffered to enter into his house to defile it lest his presence and power be withdrawn.

No 19 year old man is prepared spiritually in the LDS Church to take upon them the temple endowment. To force them to do this is abuse. They know that they will not keep these covenants and that rather they will seek everything of the world in great excellent abundance rather than consecrate the least thing to building up the kingdom of God upon the earth or establish Zion. None of them even know how that is done. Neither do their leaders. They got educations to get and jobs and businesses to develop. This they will do and defy God and blaspheme his holy house by giving lip service to it many many times a year or run away from it all in a disgust of self loathing for the hypocrisy they are forced into.

You might not see the damage because you give no value to it. That is why it is qualified as spiritual abuse. If you do not value the spiritual it means nothing. These boards are filled with those who have given a favorable value to the spiritual and are vexed in the conundrum of disconnect from all they know and all they ought to do and what they do not know how, or if, or what, or why they should....................care?

D&C 112:
23 Verily, verily, I say unto you, darkness covereth the earth, and gross darkness the minds of the people, and all flesh has become corrupt before my face.
24 Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.
25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord;
26 First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.

D&C 84
51 For whoso cometh not unto me is under the bondage of sin.
52 And whoso receiveth not my voice is not acquainted with my voice, and is not of me.
53 And by this you may know the righteous from the wicked, and that the whole world groaneth under sin and darkness even now.
54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—
55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.
56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.
57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—
58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.
59 For shall the children of the kingdom pollute my holy land? Verily, I say unto you, Nay.

3 Nephii 18:
28 And now behold, this is the commandment which I give unto you, that ye shall not suffer any one knowingly to partake of my flesh and blood unworthily, when ye shall minister it;
29 For whoso eateth and drinketh my flesh and blood unworthily eateth and drinketh damnation to his soul; therefore if ye know that a man is unworthy to eat and drink of my flesh and blood ye shall forbid him.
30 Nevertheless, ye shall not cast him out from among you, but ye shall minister unto him and shall pray for him unto the Father, in my name; and if it so be that he repenteth and is baptized in my name, then shall ye receive him, and shall minister unto him of my flesh and blood.
31 But if he repent not he shall not be numbered among my people, that he may not destroy my people, for behold I know my sheep, and they are numbered.

Partaking of the sacrament is counted as validation of worthiness. Jesus Christ commanded the church to administer this precisely a certain way. Why? To get things right to begin with to see that they are built upon his rock and not after the image and likeness of the world (See D&C 1)

Since LDS leadership is clueless how to bring the people to a state of worthiness they are condemning everyone to damnation by moving forward in "faith" as it were and are trampling upon the Holy One of Israel in their greed for honor and praise and owning their positions in great arrogance and at the envy of others. They have spent their time poorly.

You declaring no harm no foul is meaningless.

Mormons are lifted up in the pride of their own excellence above all nations and cannot help but commit abominations according to their great folly. See 3 Nephi 16.

Please take careful note that LDS faithful will not challenge me on any of this. They run for the rocks to cover them and hide from the light that has sprung up in their faces. Pretend again with great arrogance this is too silly to stoop and bother with. They can only hope. I say that the Lord is furious with them when he gives them any thought at all.

Nightlion wrote:

Nomomo wrote:The doctrine that your family members can be with you in heaven if they are also Mormons sealed to you with mumbo jumbo silly ass nonsense rituals. This is major spiritual abuse!

NO! That's not it. Not that you care slightly but abuse is to defile and attempt to force you to be less than what you could be. It diminishes you personally. And in this sense it is accomplished by manipulation of spiritual realities. To wit:

Incompetent LDS administrators ignore commandments of Jesus Christ and rather than carefully see to it that ONLY those who are made partakers of the power of the gospel are given sacrament and advanced ordinances, they McGospel these out willy nilly to everyone for money and position and authority and the praise of the world that they are the GREAAAAAT builders of the Kingdom of God upon the earth.

NOW these pathetic victims are eating and drinking damnation to their souls beoming blind and deaf and dumb because this error has caused the condemnation of the Father to rest upon them darkening their minds. This is according to the commandment Christ received of his Father before he left the Nephites when he visited them.

I know you particularly would not value this the same and calling it abuse to you might be silly.
So too is it abuse to send those who still fail to bring forth fruit meet for the Father's kingdom into the temple to defile it withal and heap up blasphemy upon blasphemy as they pretend to be worthy to receive that which they have no right to by commandment of Jesus Christ that NO UNCLEAN THING shall be suffered to enter into his house to defile it lest his presence and power be withdrawn.

No 19 year old man is prepared spiritually in the LDS Church to take upon them the temple endowment. To force them to do this is abuse. They know that they will not keep these covenants and that rather they will seek everything of the world in great excellent abundance rather than consecrate the least thing to building up the kingdom of God upon the earth or establish Zion. None of them even know how that is done. Neither do their leaders. They got educations to get and jobs and businesses to develop. This they will do and defy God and blaspheme his holy house by giving lip service to it many many times a year or run away from it all in a disgust of self loathing for the hypocrisy they are forced into.

You might not see the damage because you give no value to it. That is why it is qualified as spiritual abuse. If you do not value the spiritual it means nothing. These boards are filled with those who have given a favorable value to the spiritual and are vexed in the conundrum of disconnect from all they know and all they ought to do and what they do not know how, or if, or what, or why they should....................care?

D&C 112:
23 Verily, verily, I say unto you, darkness covereth the earth, and gross darkness the minds of the people, and all flesh has become corrupt before my face.
24 Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.
25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord;
26 First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.

D&C 84
51 For whoso cometh not unto me is under the bondage of sin.
52 And whoso receiveth not my voice is not acquainted with my voice, and is not of me.
53 And by this you may know the righteous from the wicked, and that the whole world groaneth under sin and darkness even now.
54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—
55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.
56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.
57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—
58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.
59 For shall the children of the kingdom pollute my holy land? Verily, I say unto you, Nay.

3 Nephii 18:
28 And now behold, this is the commandment which I give unto you, that ye shall not suffer any one knowingly to partake of my flesh and blood unworthily, when ye shall minister it;
29 For whoso eateth and drinketh my flesh and blood unworthily eateth and drinketh damnation to his soul; therefore if ye know that a man is unworthy to eat and drink of my flesh and blood ye shall forbid him.
30 Nevertheless, ye shall not cast him out from among you, but ye shall minister unto him and shall pray for him unto the Father, in my name; and if it so be that he repenteth and is baptized in my name, then shall ye receive him, and shall minister unto him of my flesh and blood.
31 But if he repent not he shall not be numbered among my people, that he may not destroy my people, for behold I know my sheep, and they are numbered.

Partaking of the sacrament is counted as validation of worthiness. Jesus Christ commanded the church to administer this precisely a certain way. Why? To get things right to begin with to see that they are built upon his rock and not after the image and likeness of the world (See D&C 1)

Since LDS leadership is clueless how to bring the people to a state of worthiness they are condemning everyone to damnation by moving forward in "faith" as it were and are trampling upon the Holy One of Israel in their greed for honor and praise and owning their positions in great arrogance and at the envy of others. They have spent their time poorly.

You declaring no harm no foul is meaningless.

Mormons are lifted up in the pride of their own excellence above all nations and cannot help but commit abominations according to their great folly. See 3 Nephi 16.

Please take careful note that LDS faithful will not challenge me on any of this. They run for the rocks to cover them and hide from the light that has sprung up in their faces. Pretend again with great arrogance this is too silly to stoop and bother with. They can only hope. I say that the Lord is furious with them when he gives them any thought at all.

Nightlion wrote:

Tobin wrote:So as I read this, you are saying it is spiritual abuse to take out your endowment? I don't know if I could agree with that. I could agree it is shocking, especially for the uninitiated. But abuse?!? I don't think so. It has taken me decades to somewhat understand what the endowment is and what it is not. I certainly can understand how it can surprise those who experience it for the first time and why those outside the Church often make fun of it. It is because they don't see it for what it is and the silly and often unnecessary rituals Joseph Smith (and others) employed often get in the way of what is truly important.

I see you're taking the entire lump lightly so I can understand your lack of concern. And again you swipe at Joseph Smith. I don't care much for believers in God making with the Light Fandango at Joseph Smith's expense.