DiscussMormonism.com

I sometimes get the feeling that Christians would rather deal with atheists than with people who believe in Christian Universalism. For example at CARM you can talk about just about anything (atheism, Catholicism, Mormonism, Islam, etc.), but discussion of Christian Universalism was banned. I'm not sure how Mormons deal with Christian Universalism, but I can tell you that saying that on a Catholic board is going to cause people to go ballistic even though many of the church fathers such as Gregory of Nyssa and Origen taught it. It seems strange to me that people would get upset at the idea that eventually everyone could be saved.

I'm not sure how Mormons deal with Christian Universalism

Except for a few message boards (MDD, MD, CARM, etc.) we generally feel free to talk about anything, anytime, anywhere. As for Christian Universalism, LDS doctrine implies that most will ultimately saved but very few restored to a right, or full, relationship with God.

I've had a number of good discussions on the MAD/MDD boards about universalism. I've also discussed it at length on the staylds forum. I've also discussed it on LDS Freedom Forum, a predominantly theologically conservative board where most hold to very literal interpretations of scripture. And most recently, I've discussed it here with you. Most of those conversations have been worthwhile.

Obviously I can't say for sure, but I will share my opinion as to why the concept is so upsetting. Many people aren't experiencing the peace and joy their faith should bring. They are counting on a posthumous reward to justify the sacrifices they are making in mortality. If others reap the same reward without making the sacrifice, well that just seems utterly unfair.

What they miss is that living after the manner of happiness should bring joy and peace now. The reward is available for the taking as we speak. That's why the prodigal's father says to his eldest son "Thou art ever with me. All that I have is thine."

In other words, "You've been here all along. You could have had a goat and a celebration with your friends any time you wanted. You didn't need to ask. It was right here for the taking. Why didn't you enjoy the bountiful blessings associated with living in your Father's house?"

If you are miserable and see your spiritual life as an exercise in 'missing out' on the perks of a sinful life, then not only do you miss the point of the good news entirely, you tend to see universalism as the undeserving receiving mercy and forgiveness without "paying their dues" (a false interpretation, as you well know).

(I have a feeling I said this just last week in the other thread you started so I'll put this poor, dead horse away now... )

mercyngrace wrote:I've had a number of good discussions on the MAD/MDD boards about universalism. I've also discussed it at length on the staylds forum. I've also discussed it on LDS Freedom Forum, a predominantly theologically conservative board where most hold to very literal interpretations of scripture. And most recently, I've discussed it here with you. Most of those conversations have been worthwhile.

Obviously I can't say for sure, but I will share my opinion as to why the concept is so upsetting. Many people aren't experiencing the peace and joy their faith should bring. They are counting on a posthumous reward to justify the sacrifices they are making in mortality. If others reap the same reward without making the sacrifice, well that just seems utterly unfair.

What they miss is that living after the manner of happiness should bring joy and peace now. The reward is available for the taking as we speak. That's why the prodigal's father says to his eldest son "Thou art ever with me. All that I have is thine."

In other words, "You've been here all along. You could have had a goat and a celebration with your friends any time you wanted. You didn't need to ask. It was right here for the taking. Why didn't you enjoy the bountiful blessings associated with living in your Father's house?"

If you are miserable and see your spiritual life as an exercise in 'missing out' on the perks of a sinful life, then not only do you miss the point of the good news entirely, you tend to see universalism as the undeserving receiving mercy and forgiveness without "paying their dues" (a false interpretation, as you well know).

(I have a feeling I said this just last week in the other thread you started so I'll put this poor, dead horse away now... )

I see it more mysticism than salvation. All of the resent CU spouts are very nebulous about what's exactly what. It cannot help but come off fully packed with manipulations that play to humanistic ends rather than serve God in any way. I am seeing it like everyone is floating a boat gently, gently down the same stream. Some are troubled in turbulence and others wreck on shore, but eventually, eventually, everyone arrives regardless of how they road out their time. How is God and Christ more than incidental. Sorry but it seems like you want to Baha'i Christianity.

If every kingdom of glory is NOT hell because it IS a kingdom of glory even the lowest then in that context EVERYONE is saved to some degree of glory. But that is NOT what you mean. Is it? I heard one of your camp declare Universal Exaltation..........really?

Boilermaker wrote:I sometimes get the feeling that Christians would rather deal with atheists than with people who believe in Christian Universalism. For example at CARM you can talk about just about anything (atheism, Catholicism, Mormonism, Islam, etc.), but discussion of Christian Universalism was banned. I'm not sure how Mormons deal with Christian Universalism, but I can tell you that saying that on a Catholic board is going to cause people to go ballistic even though many of the church fathers such as Gregory of Nyssa and Origen taught it. It seems strange to me that people would get upset at the idea that eventually everyone could be saved.

God's view of universalism might just be demonstrated with the following verses.

Revelation 3:15-16
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

15 I have known thy works, that neither cold art thou nor hot; I would thou wert cold or hot.

16 So -- because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I am about to vomit thee out of my mouth;

Nightlion wrote:I see it more mysticism than salvation. All of the resent CU spouts are very nebulous about what's exactly what. It cannot help but come off fully packed with manipulations that play to humanistic ends rather than serve God in any way. I am seeing it like everyone is floating a boat gently, gently down the same stream. Some are troubled in turbulence and others wreck on shore, but eventually, eventually, everyone arrives regardless of how they road out their time. How is God and Christ more than incidental. Sorry but it seems like you want to Baha'i Christianity.

If every kingdom of glory is NOT hell because it IS a kingdom of glory even the lowest then in that context EVERYONE is saved to some degree of glory. But that is NOT what you mean. Is it? I heard one of your camp declare Universal Exaltation..........really?

Nightlion, the fact that you ask how God and Christ figure reveals that we aren't communicating clearly. The role of Christ is as central as ever and progress through becoming godly is likewise, central to progression.

Christ remains the narrow way. Every saved soul must follow the same process of repentance, coming unto Christ, becoming justified through Him, and acquiring the knowledge and attributes of God. The path doesn't change. There is no suggestion of a free ride into the kingdom. None.

As for universal exaltation...

I posted a quote from Lectures on Faith where Joseph Smith explains that salvation is the same thing we presently term exaltation. The D&C bears this out (compare D&C 14:7 and D&C 6:13).

D&C 76 says all but sons of perdition are heirs to salvation.

It's not a big leap.

mercyngrace wrote:It's not a big leap.

So you want us to think. Seems I thought Joseph Smith was not the primary writer of the Lectures on Faith. Anyway D&C 132 is reported to have been known or received by Joseph Smith as early as 1831. How could he have made this salvation=exaltation mistake knowing this:

D&C 132

D&C 132: 17
17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.

And I serious doubt any of your clan expects to participate in plural wives and so you too could only be saved and not be gods. Right? I c an expect that you will remain fuzzy on the details. So it behoveth me not to ask, but I will, exactly how you proscribe one manages to come unto Christ correctly. Is that no fuzzy enough?

Huh. Christian Universalism looks very similar to Mormonism. "Hell is not eternal in time."

Regarding D&C 132:17, I invite you to examine the context, specifically the previous verse.

These verses refer to a time frame during which there is no marrying or giving in marriage. When would that be? When is the only point in LDS theology after which a marriage cannot be solemnized by the sealing ordinance? Put another way, can couples and families be sealed together prior to resurrection but posthumously?

Obviously, given the teachings on temple work, we believe the power to create eternal ties extends beyond the grave.

If the resurrection is the culmination of of progress as suggested by the following two quotes, then what remains is to save our dead, without whom we cannot be saved, prior to their resurrection.

If a person is baptized for the remission of sins, and dies a short time thereafter, he is not prepared at once to enjoy a fulness of the glory promised to the faithful in the Gospel; for he must be schooled while in the spirit, in the other departments of the house of God, passing on from truth to truth, from intelligence to intelligence, until he is prepared to again receive his body and to enter into the presence of the Father and the Son. We cannot enter into celestial glory in our present state of ignorance and mental darkness (DBY, 378–79).

"Here, then, is eternal life - to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you, namely by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. And I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming his name, is not trifling with you or me." TPJS pp.358-359

My vision of coming unto Christ isn't fuzzy in the least.

Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ
Repentance through Him
Baptism (covenant making) to take His name
Baptism by fire as the Spirit purifies, refines, and instructs
Abiding the laws of each kingdom progressively and gaining wisdom and knowledge accordingly until we are prepared to be presented at the veil, a symbol of the flesh of Christ (Heb 10) where the Spirit bears witness before the Father that we have received all we need to enter His Kingdom.

That's obviously a bullet point overview but I'm not writing a book tonight. Do we have to learn to abide the laws pertaining to the kingdoms we inhabit? Absolutely. Do we have to repent and for most of us does that entail a bright recollection of guilt and some time now or later in hell? You bet. Must we be spotless? Yes. Virtuous and filled with love unfeigned? Yes.

As for Joseph confusing exaltation and salvation, you seem to have ignored the two verses in D&C I provided. Was the Lord through Joseph the primary source of D&C sections 6 and 14?
Was He the primary author of D&C 76?

How about 137, in which all unaccountable children, all who would have accepted the gospel, and all those whose worthiness is proven not by their works alone but mitigated by their true desires, are promised a celestial inheritance?

I may speculate that exaltation is a broader gift that we currently think, but one thing is certain. The gates to the Celestial Kingdom have been thrown wide open by D&C 137 and 138 and according to the Revelation of John, ch.21 verse 25, they never close.

Huh. Christian Universalism looks very similar to Mormonism. "Hell is not eternal in time."

Except for the sons (and daughters imho) of Perdition.