The Four Universalist and The Apocalrock

[_Nightlion]

Calling upon jo1952, mercyngrace, Boilermaker, and sansfoy to help me make some sense of what's up. Do you agree or is the concept or need to agree heresy to the universalist mind. If you agree how did that happen?

Are you Unitarians?

Is Mormon/Unitarians a new thing? And if so I guess there are lots and lots of them these days.

Jo, I have been looking back on your first days back in December of last year. On this thread you make the following statement:

Since we are all different, with different personalities and different strengths and weaknesses, I cannot imagine how one test could be created which would then truly be fair. Thus, it makes sense to me that everyone's life is different. Everyone's journey is different.

Is this idea the foundation of your Universalism?
How does this overarching concern include the gospel of Jesus Christ. Seems to me that you use this to cancel the gospel and supplant a relativism in its place that services the individual only and makes God more obsessed with being fair forcing God to be subject to that law rather in preference to our subjecting unto God's law and commandments.

I do love how your mind seeks to capture great thoughts.

MercyandGrace said here:

I don't believe that happiness in this life only comes via the LDS church. There is a very real distinction between the gospel and the church. One being the way, and the other being merely the vehicle for presenting the way to the world. One never fails the other is a hot mess in many regards. The church is valuable and useful only insofar as the gospel is practiced within it. When the gospel is not, it goes from stepping stone to stumbling block - a fact we have learned by sad experience over and over and over again.

I believe that much of the wisdom of the gospel is accessible to the wise and humble aside from any religious context. Truth, all truth, wherever we find it, is what matters. That the church is a repository for the priestly order does not make it perfect or even remotely so. Look at Eli's sons in 1 Sam 2 or the Sadducees in Christ's day.

I would like to believe that the gospel you own IS the gospel but like with Thor's hammer Universalism attempts to make minced meat of what I own. The effort put into stitching the Restoration into the tapestry of Universalism is impressive giving it an A for effort. Since the Mormons never did understand or accomplish the gospel and since they advance no skill in its accomplishment and deny its necessity leading those Mormons to your Universalism has nothing in me.

If I need to I will reiterate the gospel for you. Since this grinds upon the patience of most of the kind readers I will assume for now that it is understood already what counts with me in that regard.

Where are you truly coming from Universalism?

[_mercyngrace]

I've been quite busy today, Nightlion, but I didn't want you to think I was ignoring this thread. So for now, I provide these cursory answers:

First, I don't believe Universalism is heresy. I believe the extremes of indulgent inclusivity and egregious exclusivity are heresies. I believe in a narrow way - one that requires repentance and one through which all (or at all but Sons of Perdition) eventually pass. I believe Christ is that narrow way. And I echo the words of Spencer W. Kimball who foretold an eventual unconditional surrender of all men.

Am I a Unitarian? No.

But I do believe these words of Joseph Smith: "Mormonism is truth; and every man who embraces it feels himself at liberty to embrace every truth: consequently the shackles of superstition, bigotry, ignorance, and priestcraft, fall at once from his neck; and his eyes are opened to see the truth, and truth greatly prevails…” (See Teachings of the Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith, chap. 22.)

I am open to truth, come from whence it may.

Further, I embrace these words of Joseph Smith: It is one evidence that men are unacquainted with the principles of godliness to behold the contraction of affectionate feelings and lack of charity in the world. The power and glory of godliness is spread out on a broad principle to throw out the mantle of charity. God does not look on sin with allowance, but when men have sinned, there must be allowance made for them.

All the religious world is boasting of righteousness; it is the doctrine of the devil to retard the human mind, and hinder our progress, by filling us with self-righteousness. The nearer we get to our heavenly Father, the more we are disposed to look with compassion on perishing souls; we feel we want to take them upon our shoulders, and cast their sins behind our backs… if you would have God have mercy on you, have mercy on one another.

Nothing is so much calculated to lead people to forsake sin as to take them by the hand, and watch over them with tenderness. When persons manifest the least kindness and love to me, O what power it has over my mind, while the opposite course has a tendency to harrow up all the harsh feelings and depress the human mind.


This mercy does not take the form of excusing actions which breed contention, division, and dissonance between men and God or which violate the primary command to "love one another and choose me" (Moses 7:33) but it does depend upon us recognizing the mitigating factors which play a role in the harm we do to one another (sin) and the overwhelming limitation of looking through a glass darkly.

It always interests me to note that in the parables of Luke 15, God is compared to an old woman and a shepherd, both of whom have lost something precious. A key phrase is repeated in both tales, with slightly altered wording to fit each circumstance. In describing the length each god character will go to recover his/her lost item, we read "until he find it" and "till it be found". Jesus himself describes a God who refuses to stop going out after His lost until they are at last recovered. You may find this incompatible with your faith but I find it to be news uniquely worthy of the adjective "good".

Cate

[_Nightlion]

I've been quite busy today, Nightlion, but I didn't want you to think I was ignoring this thread. So for now, I provide these cursory answers:

First, I don't believe Universalism is heresy. I believe the extremes of indulgent inclusivity and egregious exclusivity are heresies. I believe in a narrow way - one that requires repentance and one through which all (or at all but Sons of Perdition) eventually pass. I believe Christ is that narrow way. And I echo the words of Spencer W. Kimball who foretold an eventual unconditional surrender of all men.

Am I a Unitarian? No.

But I do believe these words of Joseph Smith: "Mormonism is truth; and every man who embraces it feels himself at liberty to embrace every truth: consequently the shackles of superstition, bigotry, ignorance, and priestcraft, fall at once from his neck; and his eyes are opened to see the truth, and truth greatly prevails…” (See Teachings of the Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith, chap. 22.)

I am open to truth, come from whence it may.

Further, I embrace these words of Joseph Smith: It is one evidence that men are unacquainted with the principles of godliness to behold the contraction of affectionate feelings and lack of charity in the world. The power and glory of godliness is spread out on a broad principle to throw out the mantle of charity. God does not look on sin with allowance, but when men have sinned, there must be allowance made for them.

All the religious world is boasting of righteousness; it is the doctrine of the devil to r***** the human mind, and hinder our progress, by filling us with self-righteousness. The nearer we get to our heavenly Father, the more we are disposed to look with compassion on perishing souls; we feel we want to take them upon our shoulders, and cast their sins behind our backs… if you would have God have mercy on you, have mercy on one another.

Nothing is so much calculated to lead people to forsake sin as to take them by the hand, and watch over them with tenderness. When persons manifest the least kindness and love to me, O what power it has over my mind, while the opposite course has a tendency to harrow up all the harsh feelings and depress the human mind.


This mercy does not take the form of excusing actions which breed contention, division, and dissonance between men and God or which violate the primary command to "love one another and choose me" (Moses 7:33) but it does depend upon us recognizing the mitigating factors which play a role in the harm we do to one another (sin) and the overwhelming limitation of looking through a glass darkly.

It always interests me to note that in the parables of Luke 15, God is compared to an old woman and a shepherd, both of whom have lost something precious. A key phrase is repeated in both tales, with slightly altered wording to fit each circumstance. In describing the length each god character will go to recover his/her lost item, we read "until he find it" and "till it be found". Jesus himself describes a God who refuses to stop going out after His lost until they are at last recovered. You may find this incompatible with your faith but I find it to be news uniquely worthy of the adjective "good".

Cate

I love a man/woman who can quote a stream of Joseph Smith quotes as long as my arm.

I have to take people 'not seriously' in these parts. You and jo1952 are like my first experience with people who actually care. I am not over my cynicism yet so bear with me a little more.

I am curious how anyone who seriously cares about truth and is exposed to LDS Standard Works fails to come unto Christ and be visited of his power and truly wrought upon and cleansed and raised up to a state of righteousness by the EVENT of the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost. I understand all too well why the Gentiles trample it under foot. Like Jesus said all who are not against us are on our part. But that is a lowest common denominator. You know as well as I that Joseph Smith taught the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost. So why is it ignored and skirted by Universalism?

[_mercyngrace]

I have to take people 'not seriously' in these parts. You and jo1952 are like my first experience with people who actually care. I am not over my cynicism yet so bear with me a little more.

I am curious how anyone who seriously cares about truth and is exposed to LDS Standard Works fails to come unto Christ and be visited of his power and truly wrought upon and cleansed and raised up to a state of righteousness by the EVENT of the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost. I understand all too well why the Gentiles trample it under foot. Like Jesus said all who are not against us are on our part. But that is a lowest common denominator. You know as well as I that Joseph Smith taught the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost. So why is it ignored and skirted by Universalism?

I don't believe it is skirted by universalism. I simply believe that the door to that event remains open after death. You know, Joseph Smith taught that we would be working out our salvation long after mortality. I'm not telling you anything you are unfamiliar with, Nightlion. Perhaps, as the scriptures suggest, those who are raised up because they experienced this superb gift in mortality will be those who are organized to teach in the next life.

Joseph said Enoch was presently of a terrestrial order. Enoch had pierced the veil. It then became his duty to minister to the inhabitants of this world in the same manner D&C 76 describes. Terrestrial beings minister to telestial beings. And so the pattern goes until at last we are all changed.

That there will be bodies of varying glories is certain but that is a reference to the dominion we create in terms of drawing others to us through virtue and love unfeigned (D&C 121). It is not a reference to where we live, but how. The reasons I write as I do would fill a book and be supported primarily by experiences and underscored by scriptures and statements by church authorities. However, the simplest validation I offer is my own life. If the great Potter, can shape me in His hands and create a worthy vessel from the mess of clay that I am, who am I to place limits on the depth and breadth of His artistry?

[_Nightlion]

I have to take people 'not seriously' in these parts. You and jo1952 are like my first experience with people who actually care. I am not over my cynicism yet so bear with me a little more.

I am curious how anyone who seriously cares about truth and is exposed to LDS Standard Works fails to come unto Christ and be visited of his power and truly wrought upon and cleansed and raised up to a state of righteousness by the EVENT of the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost. I understand all too well why the Gentiles trample it under foot. Like Jesus said all who are not against us are on our part. But that is a lowest common denominator. You know as well as I that Joseph Smith taught the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost. So why is it ignored and skirted by Universalism?

I don't believe it is skirted by universalism. I simply believe that the door to that event remains open after death. You know, Joseph Smith taught that we would be working out our salvation long after mortality. I'm not telling you anything you are unfamiliar with, Nightlion. Perhaps, as the scriptures suggest, those who are raised up because they experienced this superb gift in mortality will be those who are organized to teach in the next life.

Joseph said Enoch was presently of a terrestrial order. Enoch had pierced the veil. It then became his duty to minister to the inhabitants of this world in the same manner D&C 76 describes. Terrestrial beings minister to telestial beings. And so the pattern goes until at last we are all changed.

That there will be bodies of varying glories is certain but that is a reference to the dominion we create in terms of drawing others to us through virtue and love unfeigned (D&C 121). It is not a reference to where we live, but how. The reasons I write as I do would fill a book and be supported primarily by experiences and underscored by scriptures and statements by church authorities. However, the simplest validation I offer is my own life. If the great Potter, can shape me in His hands and create a worthy vessel from the mess of clay that I am, who am I to place limits on the depth and breadth of His artistry?

Interesting this license you take without precedent in scripture. And you seem to capture the rah rah of the crowd validating your wander lust where YOU make all the calls. You claim to follow Christ or go his way or whatever and admit that you do skate over it......for now. How convenient is that? I really do not want to insult you. But if you fail to come unto Christ I reject all your ideas regardless how you strive to dress it up in the accoutrements and habiliments of Joseph Smith.

[_mercyngrace]

Interesting this license you take without precedent in scripture. And you seem to capture the rah rah of the crowd validating your wander lust where YOU make all the calls. You claim to follow Christ or go his way or whatever and admit that you do skate over it......for now. How convenient is that? I really do not want to insult you. But if you fail to come unto Christ I reject all your ideas regardless how you strive to dress it up in the accoutrements and habiliments of Joseph Smith.

The rah, rah of the crowd? Where is this crowd you speak of, Nightlion? The fact that folks are friendly to me doesn't mean they agree with me.

[_Chap]

... The reasons I write as I do would fill a book and be supported primarily by experiences and underscored by scriptures and statements by church authorities. However, the simplest validation I offer is my own life. If the great Potter, can shape me in His hands and create a worthy vessel from the mess of clay that I am, who am I to place limits on the depth and breadth of His artistry?

Interesting this license you take without precedent in scripture. And you seem to capture the rah rah of the crowd validating your wander lust where YOU make all the calls. You claim to follow Christ or go his way or whatever and admit that you do skate over it......for now. How convenient is that? I really do not want to insult you. But if you fail to come unto Christ I reject all your ideas regardless how you strive to dress it up in the accoutrements and habiliments of Joseph Smith.

Which, being interpreted, meaneth:

"Hey! I'm the prophet round here. Quit cutting in woman, or I'll set the bears onto ya!"

[_Boilermaker]

My hope in universalism comes from belief that God is both just and merciful. I don't see anything just about a system in which people are penalized forever for temporary sins. My background is Mormonism, but I am currently Catholic perhaps on my way back to Mormonism. I also understand that I could be wrong about universalism because I am not God.

[_Valentinus]

My hope in universalism comes from belief that God is both just and merciful. I don't see anything just about a system in which people are penalized forever for temporary sins. My background is Mormonism, but I am currently Catholic perhaps on my way back to Mormonism. I also understand that I could be wrong about universalism because I am not God.

I left Mormonism impulsively and am on my way back in. But universalism is probably the one philosophy that is keeping me sane as I make my spiritual journey.

[_Nightlion]

Which, being interpreted, meaneth:

"Hey! I'm the prophet round here. Quit cutting in woman, or I'll set the bears onto ya!"

lol Actually I am having some of the most fun ever with this. It's like I have been professionally profiled and got players messing with me just to see what they can do. I still hope they are sincere and are not the same person or working together. A dubious hope at best.

Truth will win out if they don't give up or will not admit truth when it is plainly set in front of them.