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The missing 116 pages and the alleged alterations
Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 4:16 pm
by _Stormy Waters
I've been thinking a little about the 116 lost pages of the Book of Mormon and about the account given in
D&C 10.
Revelation given to Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Harmony, Pennsylvania, in the summer of 1828 (see History of the Church, 1:20–23). Herein the Lord informs Joseph of alterations made by wicked men in the 116 manuscript pages from the translation of the book of Lehi, in the Book of Mormon. These manuscript pages had been lost from the possession of Martin Harris, to whom the sheets had been temporarily entrusted. (See the heading to section 3.) The evil design was to await the expected retranslation of the matter covered by the stolen pages and then to discredit the translator by showing discrepancies created by the alterations. That this wicked purpose had been conceived by the evil one and was known to the Lord even while Mormon, the ancient Nephite historian, was making his abridgment of the accumulated plates, is shown in the Book of Mormon (see Words of Mormon 1:3–7).
If this was true, why wouldn't these evil men have released their altered version anyway? Wouldn't the altered Lehi version still contradict parts of the Nephi version if it told the same story?
Re: The missing 116 pages and the alleged alterations
Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 4:32 pm
by _Fence Sitter
Many of the stories that J.S. told surrounding the Gold Plates don't make a lot of sense. It would have been easy in an handwritten manuscript to see those alterations.
1. Martin Harris trying to fool him by switching the seer stones.
2. Anthon transcrpt story as told by J.S. (Why would Prof Anthon state the translation looked correct when he could not read Egyptian let alone reformed Egyptian?)
3. Running at full speed with the plates and eluding people who were unencumbered by 60 pounds of gold.
4. His treasure hunting companions who were able to use a divining rod to discover the previous hiding place of the plates but not the current one.
The list goes on.
Re: The missing 116 pages and the alleged alterations
Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 5:12 pm
by _Tobin
What doesn't make sense is what you are asking. So maybe you could clarify it a bit.
Do you believe Martin Harris's wife took the 116 pages or not? If not, what do you base that on? If so, then clearly they were lost, never to be seen again. And whatever their intention around taking them was, it seems to have been foiled since they obviously didn't publish the 116 pages altered or not.
Re: The missing 116 pages and the alleged alterations
Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 5:39 pm
by _Fence Sitter
Much of the story does not make sense. Here is a post by Cinepro ( I think this is from Cinepro but not sure) the summarizes many of the problems.
116 lost pages D&C 10
A more likely scenario would be Lucy trying to stop the project cold by destroying the pages. A lone, desperate woman who thinks they'll get discouraged and stop if their progress is destroyed (perhaps assuming that this interest is, like so many of Martin's, only temporary and easily diverted).
Imagine a desperate and temperamental Lucy Harris. She is married to Martin Harris, who is a good and hardworking husband but has a tendency to put stock in the religious claims of others when perhaps he shouldn't. Now your husband Martin is involved in another plan, this time involving the creation of a lengthy (and expensive book).
So you decide to see if this book is a good investment. You tell Martin there will be no more money spent until you can see the work-in-progress. If Joseph Smith's book turns out to be good (or even great), you could find yourself with a piece of the next big classic of American literature. Maybe this investment will work out?
Martin agrees, and brings the pages. You settle down at your desk and start reading. But it isn't great. It reads like a mishmash of biblical language and story. There are characters named "Limnob" and "Herlibub". They ride animals called "Cheribmoms" and "Hodignas". There is no discernible story thread. There are repetitive phrases like "I dreamed a dream", and almost every paragraph begins with the phrase "And behold, this is what happened next..."
This isn't what you expected, and you realize Martin has got to stop. Immediately. You have to pull the plug. What's the best way to do this? Destroy the pages. Martin mentioned there were no other copies. This will be the end of the project, since the demoralized Joseph would never want to go back and start from page 1. Martin will come to his senses and leave the scheme behind.
Compare that with Joseph Smith's version of "the plan" as found in D&C 10.
That plan involves Joseph and Martin using even more of Martin's time and money to go back and re-translate. Then it involves that re-translation being made publicly available. Then it involves the Lucy Harris gang somehow making their altered version publicly available in such a way that people compare it to the Joseph Smith publication. And somehow the alterations would be done in such a way that it doesn't look like they went in and altered it in certain places. And then somehow the people that would be interested in the Book of Mormon wouldn't be interested anymore because there is another version of the story floating around that was published by the disgruntled wife of Martin Harris and a gang of Joseph's enemies.
And in all of this, Joseph isn't able to explain the "loose" translation theory that would easily explain why the two translations don't match up. And he isn't able to explain to people that months earlier, the angry wife of his financier stole those pages and altered them.
From a faithful perspective one would expect that J.S. could have reproduced the 116 pages. A side by side comparison of the altered original and the reproduction would have made any alterations in the original quite obvious.
From a non believer perspective it makes perfect sense. He knew he could not reproduce an accurate copy that could be checked against the stolen original and made up a cover story as to why he didn't.
Re: The missing 116 pages and the alleged alterations
Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:02 pm
by _Tobin
Fence Sitter wrote:From a faithful perspective one would expect that J.S. could have reproduced the 116 pages. A side by side comparison of the altered original and the reproduction would have made any alterations in the original quite obvious.
Must we? Clearly he didn't so that can't be true.
Fence Sitter wrote:From a non believer perspective it makes perfect sense. He knew he could not reproduce an accurate copy that could be checked against the stolen original and made up a cover story as to why he didn't.
Maybe or maybe not. Since we never saw the 116 pages again, it seems Joseph Smith's (ala God) solution put a stop to whatever it was.
Re: The missing 116 pages and the alleged alterations
Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:10 pm
by _Darth J
Martin Harris may have simply forgotten where he put the 116 pages. Or Lucy may have taken them, as depicted in certain cartoons. Or possibly "evil men" did. You have to wonder, though, exactly how these evil men got a hold of the manuscript. As Fence Sitter and many others have noted, the plot suggested by D&C 10 requires Martin Harris not to recognize his own handwriting. Which is more plausible?
1. Joseph Smith forgot the details of what he dictated, so he needed to come up with a story to explain why he could not reproduce 116 pages of story he had told. The problem would not be "evil men" altering a handwritten manuscript, because it would have been obvious that someone other than Martin Harris had interlineated any changes. The problem would have been an unaltered manuscript surfacing after Joseph Smith re-translated the 116 pages, and the re-translation didn't match what he said the first time.
2. A Hebrew prophet living in America a thousand years before Columbus landed got a warm feeling in his bosom that, in the midst of his entire civilization collapsing in a genocidal war, he should redundantly engrave the same narrative as before, but in greater detail, just in case the scribe writing down the translation 14 centuries later lost that exact part of the story.
On a related note, Don Bradley's work on reconstructing some of the narrative of the lost 116 pages poses an interesting situation for believers in the Book of Mormon.
D&C 10
38 And now, verily I say unto you, that an account of those things that you have written, which have gone out of your hands, is engraven upon the plates of Nephi;
39 Yea, and you remember it was said in those writings that a more particular account was given of these things upon the plates of Nephi.
40 And now, because the account which is engraven upon the plates of Nephi is more particular concerning the things which, in my wisdom, I would bring to the knowledge of the people in this account—
41 Therefore, you shall translate the engravings which are on the plates of Nephi, down even till you come to the reign of king Benjamin, or until you come to that which you have translated, which you have retained;
42 And behold, you shall publish it as the record of Nephi; and thus I will confound those who have altered my words.
43 I will not suffer that they shall destroy my work; yea, I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil.
44 Behold, they have only got a part, or an abridgment of the account of Nephi.
45 Behold, there are many things engraven upon the plates of Nephi which do throw greater views upon my gospel; therefore, it is wisdom in me that you should translate this first part of the engravings of Nephi, and send forth in this work.
Per Don's FAIR presentation, if the lost 116 pages had all these story elements that are not found in the published Book of Mormon, which give us further insights into temple worship and so forth, then the Lord must have been wrong about "many things engraven upon the plates of Nephi which do throw greater views upon my gospel."
P.S. I do not believe that Don Bradley is doing his scholarly work for apologetic purposes, nor that he intends to do anything but follow evidence where it leads.
EDIT: Made an edit.
Re: The missing 116 pages and the alleged alterations
Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:18 pm
by _Darth J
Tobin wrote:Fence Sitter wrote:From a faithful perspective one would expect that J.S. could have reproduced the 116 pages. A side by side comparison of the altered original and the reproduction would have made any alterations in the original quite obvious.
Must we? Clearly he didn't so that can't be true.
Must we
what?
You don't need actual side-by-side comparisons to know that it would have been obvious if someone took a handwritten manuscript and altered it with hand writing by someone other than Martin Harris.
From a non believer perspective it makes perfect sense. He knew he could not reproduce an accurate copy that could be checked against the stolen original and made up a cover story as to why he didn't.
Maybe or maybe not. Since we never saw the 116 pages again, it seems Joseph Smith's (ala God) solution put a stop to whatever it was.
The circular reasoning here is the same as my magic belt buckle that keeps dragons away. I have never once been attacked by a dragon while wearing this belt buckle, so it must work.
Re: The missing 116 pages and the alleged alterations
Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:23 pm
by _DarkHelmet
South Park sums in up best.
Non believer: "Wait a minute. You actually know the story of the 116 pages and you still believe Joseph Smith was a prophet?"
Believer: "Yes. The story proves it."
The 116 page fiasco is a perfect example of how those who want to believe are blinded by the obvious. It's not just Mormons. You could ask Jehovah's Witnesses, "Wait a minute. Your prophet taught that Christ returned in 1914, and you still believe it is true?" "Yes. It proves he was a true prophet."
Re: The missing 116 pages and the alleged alterations
Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:28 am
by _SteelHead
Dum dum dum
dum dum
Re: The missing 116 pages and the alleged alterations
Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 5:02 am
by _moksha
Stormy Waters wrote:I've been thinking a little about the 116 lost pages of the Book of Mormon ... If this was true, why wouldn't these evil men have released their altered version anyway?
Sometimes material gets released with altered titles to head off unwanted litigation. However, you might want to view the movie
Close Encounters of the Third Kind.