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Now that you found the troubling history of Mormonism, does your worship/spirituality/religious experience/pondering sometimes reflect what this man experienced in the photo below?



It describes mine exactly.

Image: Pvt. Paul Oglesby, 30th Infantry, standing in reverence before an altar in a damaged Catholic Church. Note: pews at left appear undamaged, while bomb-shattered roof is strewn about the sanctuary. Acerno, Italy.

Does anyone know if this Palermo church was rebuilt? I hope it was, since that would relate entirely to my religious experience.

I think most modern people have only allowed themselves tissue thin spiritual/religious experience.
None build upon a rock. I am witness of that fact. Forty and two years I have taught Rock based religion. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOBODY wants it. Too much else to do in this day and age. Rock based religion requires all and no one will give it. Easy on, easy off, easy in, easy out. Big surprise. Being educated counts for nothing by the way, yeah, nothing!

zeezrom,

Outstanding b/w image.

Thanks for posting this.

Used to really enjoy photographing European cathedrals in b/w and developing the images in the darkroom. Never achieved anything close to the depth and tonal quality of this one, however, especially with the interior of the cathedral as the subject matter. Pretty hard to get unfiltered sunlight into a cathedral (unless, of course, one uses a bomb).

Oh, and for folks like me, there are really no personal concerns about "torn up" religion.

If I ever do get to feeling nostalgic for that old time religion and how things used to be in America, I just go to a Norman Rockwell image page on the internet. Five minutes of browsing and I'm fine for another few years.

Here is a (sort of) religious image from Norman Rockwell that I like a lot. Not one of his better known works, but meaningful nonetheless, and following along with the aftermath of war theme.



(Never was able to find out what the "Gay Short Story" noted on the cover was about.)
__________________

ETA:
Saw an original print of this piece in a museum once and spent some time looking for a bullet or shrapnel hole in the coat. Couldn't find one, so I assume that Rockwell let his missing US Army First Sergeant live, and that the coat was a gift or a loan. This was apparently painted in 1943, about two years before the war ended.

zeezrom wrote:Now that you found the troubling history of Mormonism, does your worship/spirituality/religious experience/pondering sometimes reflect what this man experienced in the photo below?

It describes mine exactly.

Since people are not perfect, I expect no church to have a perfect history. However, there is much to say for Mormonism and its foundation. By all standards it should have fell if it were a fraud. Joseph had tremendous luck if he were a fraudster. He also suffered from his fraud and yet continued.

Too many people in on the fraud, and the 11 witnesses confirming their experience on their deathbeds. Wow. What luck for Joseph Smith.

So, no, LDS history does not affect me at all. But the early foundations certainly do. Amazing.

I've seen only Dresden Frauenkirche of the same category.
"The heap of ruins was conserved as a war memorial within the inner city of Dresden".

I was there before and after the reconstruction.
"It was reconstructed as a landmark symbol of reconciliation between former warring enemies." - after 50 years...

My only religious thoughts were: the bombers and the victims had the same god. They prayed against each other.


I have two line to add - apparently offtopic. (?)
1. In the early 90s (when I saw first time that Kirche), we, regulars, the most staunch people of the country, who existed to defend our homeland - were permitted to travel only to other socialist countries.
2. The Mária Valéria Bridge over the river Danube was rebuilt only in 2001 - because of intransigence between the governments of Hungary and Czechoslovakia. (both of them were socialist countries...)

why me wrote:

zeezrom wrote:Now that you found the troubling history of Mormonism, does your worship/spirituality/religious experience/pondering sometimes reflect what this man experienced in the photo below?

It describes mine exactly.

Since people are not perfect, I expect no church to have a perfect history. However, there is much to say for Mormonism and its foundation. By all standards it should have fell if it were a fraud. Joseph had tremendous luck if he were a fraudster. He also suffered from his fraud and yet continued.

Too many people in on the fraud, and the 11 witnesses confirming their experience on their deathbeds. Wow. What luck for Joseph Smith.

So, no, LDS history does not affect me at all. But the early foundations certainly do. Amazing.

Eleven witnesses? 11?

Thousands upon thousands of witnesses every year can bear testimony to seeing David Copperfield fly through the air (and to seeing his blood fly when he gets himself cut in half with a gigantic buzz-saw).

They even see these "miracles" with their own physical eyes (not their spiritual eyes). And yet, they are smart enough to know that it is all an illusion.

Both David Copperfield and Joseph Smith performed these illusions in order to get money. The difference is that (most) folks who see David Copperfield are smart enough to know that what he does is to create his own magic.

There were a lot of people in Joseph Smith's day who were smart enough to know that his claims of magic were also an illusion. By and large however, their stories and testimonies did not make into the Mormon "history" that was carried off to the Great Basin to morph for fifty years or so before encountering outside enquiry.

The difference between Joseph Smith and David Copperfield is that David Copperfield is a lot better at what he does than Joseph Smith was, and David Copperfield doesn't claim that "God did it".

DrW wrote:

why me wrote:Since people are not perfect, I expect no church to have a perfect history. However, there is much to say for Mormonism and its foundation. By all standards it should have fell if it were a fraud. Joseph had tremendous luck if he were a fraudster. He also suffered from his fraud and yet continued.

Too many people in on the fraud, and the 11 witnesses confirming their experience on their deathbeds. Wow. What luck for Joseph Smith.

So, no, LDS history does not affect me at all. But the early foundations certainly do. Amazing.

Eleven witnesses? 11?

Thousands upon thousands witnesses every year can bear testimony to seeing David Copperfield fly through the air (and to seeing his blood fly when he gets himself cut in half with a gigantic buzz-sawn).

They even see these "miracles" with their own physical eyes (not their spiritual eyes). And yet, they are smart enough to know that it is all an illusion.

Both David Copperfield and Joseph Smith performed these illusions in order to get money. The difference is that (most) folks who see David Copperfield are smart enough to know that what he does is to create his own magic.

There were a lot of people in Joseph Smith's day who were smart enough to know that his claims of magic were also an illusion. By and large however, their stories and testimonies did not make into the Mormon "history" that was carried off to the Great Basin to morph for fifty years or so before encountering outside enquiry.

The difference between Joseph Smith and David Copperfield is that David Copperfield is a lot better at what he does than Joseph Smith was, and David Copperfield doesn't claim that "God did it".

The problem of relying on the word of 11 people as witnesses FOR the truthfulness of what Joseph Smith claimed is that there are a lot more than 11 witnesses AGAINST what he claimed.

The 11 witnesses are irrelevant.
When people use this as a 'reason' why the Book of Mormon is true they are only actually saying that they themselves are choosing to believe in the Book for what they themselves believe it to be.

My religious experience was solely based in Mormonism. Prior to Mormonism I held no belief concerning god, and followed no religion. Joseph Smith's first vision was compelling to me and held enough evidentiary value to convince me there was a god. That is all gone now.

I feel no loss or pain, I certainly don't feel like a part of my life has been left in ruins. Compliance to odd rules and beliefs was predicated completely on the existence of god - if god exists and commands, there is little I could do to refute his authority (though I was never a perfect Saint in terms of obedience). Now that god doesn't exist, I simply moved back to my prior state of unbelief and freedom.

I do not crave a god or a religion.

H.