DiscussMormonism.com

Looks like part 4 of Craig Criddle's 8-part on-line
"The Origins of Mormon Scripture" presentation
is called "The Gold Bible Company."



This designation implies that there were conspirators in a
secret project, to foist a phoney "Gold Bible" upon a gullible
public, in New York, northern Pennsylvania, etc.

But is that a valid conclusion for a student of the LDS past?

Two other possibilities remain:

(1) The coming forth of the book was a Divine miracle
or
(2) The coming forth of the book was entirely Joe Smith's doing

It looks as though Criddle will soon (this week?) provide his views:
http://mormonleaks.com/

But what are the conclusions reached by other investigators? Were ALL
of Joe Smith's early Mormon converts sincere, unknowing dupes/disciples?

Or -- Did one or more of those first Mormons conspire with young Smith
in a con-man scheme? Was there really a "Gold Bible Company?"

Uncle Dale

Oliver Cowdery was in on it at the very least. At least until Fanny Alger. But his involvement was such that Joseph could put words in his mouth and visions in his 'eyes' for years later, and Oliver could not afford to have the scheme unravel on him. He went away and kept his mouth shut.

When he brokered a return after Joseph's death, is there any evidence that he was aware of the polygamy? Was the church he thought he was negotiating with, from a distance, not the real church?

Spanner wrote:Oliver Cowdery was in on it at the very least.
...

Even if we set aside all of Cowdery's claims to have personally
witnessed miraculous divine manifestations, we still have this:


>Oliver Cowdery, one of the three witnesses to the
>book, testified under oath, that said Smith found
>with the plates, from which he translated his book,
>two transparent stones, resembling glass, set in
>silver bows. That by looking through these, he was
>able to read in English, the reformed Egyptian
>characters, which were engraved on the plates.

Assuming that the 1831 report is generally accurate and
reliable, I find it troubling. And it should be troubling to
the students of Mormon history who investigate the very
earliest claims for the "interpreters" or "urim & thummim."

Cowdery, according to all reports, sat next to Smith during
the 1829 dictation sessions, with no curtain separating him
from the "translator."

Did Cowdery really witness Smith "translating" by using
"two transparent stones, resembling glass, set in silver bows"
???

Modern Mormons can object, by saying that the 1831 source
was not an official LDS testimony or GA pronouncement...


http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/NY ... htm#040931

I see it as evidence of the fact that Oliver Cowdery was willing
to lie under oath, in order to promote the Mormon agenda, as
early as 1830 (if not before).

Perhaps other students of LDS history see Oliver's actions and
words in a different light. If so, I'd like to hear those views.

The modern non-Mormon can perhaps judge that religion to be
a benign (or even a positive) phenomenon, so long as its
members and leaders have typically been sincere and honest.

The modern LDS and non-LDS voters can all mark their ballots
for Mr. Romney, only disagreeing upon the very small point of
whether or not Joe Smith was honest -- so long as the other
early LDS converts were honest and sincere believers.

That is..... if we can be sure of such honesty & sincerity.

UD

Spanner wrote:Oliver Cowdery was in on it at the very least. At least until Fanny Alger. But his involvement was such that Joseph could put words in his mouth and visions in his 'eyes' for years later, and Oliver could not afford to have the scheme unravel on him. He went away and kept his mouth shut.

When he brokered a return after Joseph's death, is there any evidence that he was aware of the polygamy? Was the church he thought he was negotiating with, from a distance, not the real church?

Of course there needs to be an explanation about why Oliver bore his testimony to his wife and daughter on his deathbed. Here our the accounts of his deathbed testimony:

I also testify to the world, that neither Oliver Cowdery or Martin Harris ever at any time denied their testimony. They both died reaffirming the truth of the divine authenticity of the Book of Mormon. I was present at the death bed of Oliver Cowdery, and his last words were, 'Brother David, be true to your testimony to the Book of Mormon.' He died here in Richmond, Mo., on March 3d, 1850. Many witnesses yet live in Richmond, who will testify to the truth of these facts, as well as to the good character of Oliver Cowdery"

David Whitmer, Address to All Believers in Christ (Richmond, Mo.: David Whitmer, 1887), p. 8.

"He...died at the age of forty-four with consumption in Richmond, Ray County, Missouri. And just before he breathed his last, he asked to be raised up in bed so he could talk to the family and friends, and he told them to live according to the teachings in the Book of Mormon, and they would meet him in heaven. Then he said, ‘Lay me down and let me fall asleep in the arms of Jesus.’ And he fell asleep without a struggle."

Letter of Lucy Cowdery Young to historian Andrew Jenson, Mar. 7, 1887, LDS archives.

"Elder Phineas H. Young, who was present at the death of Oliver Cowdery, at Richmond, Missouri, March 3 1850, says, ‘His last moments were spent in bearing testimony of the truth of the gospel revealed through Joseph Smith, and the power of the holy priesthood which he had received through his administrations.’

"Andrew Jenson, The Historical Record (Salt Lake City: Andrew Jenson, 1889), p. 202.

http://theearlyanthology.tripod.com/1829/id9.html

Why?

why me wrote:...
Of course there needs to be an explanation about why Oliver
bore his testimony to his wife and daughter on his deathbed.
Here our the accounts of his deathbed testimony:

Might be interesting to see something actually from Cowdery himself.
I'm not overly impressed with hearsay accounts from fanatical Mormons.

This bit of historical matter was at least published before he died:
http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/OH ... htm#050048

Perhaps I'll leave a deathbed confession that all my investigations
were secretly funded by rich anti-LDS Scientologists. Because it
will be the very last thing I say before expiring, everybody will
automatically believe it to be true -- and I'll get the "Last laugh."

UD

dale two items

i was surfing the nytimes site and there appeared an article form their archives at and inteview the paper had in 1895? with the last remaining eye witness to Joseph Smith in the palymra area- dan hendrix was a very young man at the time in a supply/hrdware store. his remembrances are in the article. if you are not aware it may a document useful to you.

second- can you point me to a thread or otherwise abt how Joseph Smith could pickup the transaltion at mosiah and how they implies a script of some sort since the 116 pages of the original disappeared.
thanx

kairos

kairos wrote:dale two items

i was surfing the nytimes site and there appeared an article form their archives at and inteview the paper had in 1895? with the last remaining eye witness to Joseph Smith in the palymra area- dan hendrix was a very young man at the time in a supply/hrdware store. his remembrances are in the article. if you are not aware it may a document useful to you.

Unfortunately the 1890s "Hendrix" account was a fabrication.
What little valid historical information it preserves was text
appropriated from a true NY witness, Joseph Franklin Peck:
http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/NE ... htm#101887

Sorry about that one...

second- can you point me to a thread or otherwise abt how Joseph Smith could pickup the transaltion at mosiah and how they implies a script of some sort since the 116 pages of the original disappeared.
thanx

kairos

There are various attempted explanations as to why the Book of Mormon's
Mosiah text was the earliest preserved dictation transcription. For whatever
reason we may choose to believe, it appears that Smith and Cowdery set
about transcribing the Book of Mosiah, when Oliver first arrived at Harmony
in April of 1829. There is some evidence suggesting that Smith had retained
a few pages of Mosiah, but not the very first page of that text. If so, then
he and Oliver skipped over that missing introduction, kept the few initial
pages Smith had retained at Harmony, and proceeded to "English" the rest.

Mormons will say that the "script of some sort" was the gold plates.

Smith-alone advocates will say that "the script" was in Smith's head.

But, yes, I think that the evidence indicates that there was "a script"
and that Smith and Cowdery stayed more or less true to the "script."

UD

The confusing back-tracking and repetition in early chapters of Mosiah are indications that they had some trouble in re-formulating the text.

MCB wrote:The confusing back-tracking and repetition in early chapters of Mosiah are indications that they had some trouble in re-formulating the text.

Sandra Tanner and other investigators have spent a good deal
of time trying to figure out why Mosiah (and the short books
just before it) does not correlate well with the first three books
in the Book of Mormon. There are obvious problems.

Ask any Mormon to name the Nephite kings who reigned between
the time of Jacob and the time of King Benjamin, for example.

But the Mormon apologists will simply say that the confused nature
of the text establishes its evident authenticity --- after all, they say,
why would any modern forger turn out such a convoluted story?

Unfortunately we do not have much in the way of useful first-hand
testimony for Oliver Cowdery -- at least nothing that helps solve
the various problems many have discovered in early Mormonism.

Was Cowdery a member of the 1827-1829 "Gold Bible Company?"
Or, was he a true convert of April, 1829, whose story has been
accurately told by the Mormon historians?

I wonder where Oliver fits into William Hyde's accounts? --->
http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/IL ... htm#101488
http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/LD ... htm#111088

Since Mr. Hyde is accepted by the Mormons as a credible early witness,
I can only wonder if his 1888 published accounts should be entitled:
"Early Eye-Witness to the Gold Bible Company" ???

UD

why me wrote:Of course there needs to be an explanation about why Oliver bore his testimony to his wife and daughter on his deathbed...

As UD has pointed out, the death bed testimony must be considered in context. His death-bed testimony was used to support two different Mormon factions; the witnesses were not exactly neutral and without a scribe present, confirmation bias and the passage of time are likely to have blurred the actual event. Hilariously, you have presented two conflicting accounts of Oliver's last words - this doesn't increase my confidence in either account. I don't know if Lucy was actually present at that time, would she not have been with her sister-wives back in Salt Lake while her husband was negotiating with Oliver?

Then there is this 'other' version of David Whitmer's account of Oliver's last words:

Of Cowdery's death, David Whitmer said: "Oliver died the happiest man I ever saw. After shaking hands with the family and kissing his wife and daughter, he said ‘Now I lay down for the last time; I am going to my Saviour’; and he died immediately with a smile on his face." (Stanley R. Gunn, Oliver Cowdery Second Elder of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: A Thesis Presented to the Faculty of the Division of Religion, Brigham Young University. (Stanley R. Gunn: 1942), 170-71, as cited in Millennial Star, XII, p. 207.)

Edited to add: It just struck me that someone might assume that Lucy was Oliver's daughter and an eyewitness. She was a half-sister, plural wife of Phineas, the brother of Brigham Young.