Why Are They Having This Conversation?

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_Doctor Scratch
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Why Are They Having This Conversation?

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterso ... ative.html

Dr. Peterson and Greg Smith are apparently engaged in some kind of Skinny-L chit-chat about how non-LDS religious commentary is way more mean and "nasty" comparted to the stuff they say and write:

“Can you imagine,” Greg asks, “if I’d written, ‘Now, admittedly, [So-and-so] is a notorious simpleton, whose special combination of emotional instability and intellectual fatuity leaves him in a condition rather like a chronic delirium tremens; so it is not surprising that, on being somewhat unceremoniously roused from the parochial midden on which he had been contentedly reclining, his reaction [online, in a podcast, or whatever] should be puerile and vicious; but his perplexity and rage were genuine and understandable”?

No, I honestly can’t.



Since far more mild comments elicited reactions in some quarters like that captured in the photograph above [of an erupting volcano], I can scarcely envision what might have happened if we’d really been nasty.


Now, I found this very interesting. First of all, it's eyebrow-raising that these Mopologists are even having this conversation at all. Do they care that people accuse them of being "vicious"? It would seem that they do. Second, do they not realize the strangeness inherent in them (1) tracking down other examples of "nasty" prose; (2) sharing it with each other for the sake of commentary/criticism/high-fiving, etc.; (3) using said "nasty prose" as a means of comparison with their own "nasty" writing--and as a way of vindicating their own worst moments? Further, if the reactions are simply going to be ballistic and eruptive "in certain quarters," then what is holding them back? (Of course, the implication here is that they *are* holding back--that they really want to cut loose with all manner of explicit insult and invective--but that's another story.)

As you might have expected, the Comments on the posting were of especial interest:

somebodyz wrote:There are those who want to be offended by a word. They are looking for any means real or imagined. As you and Greg have witnessed and borne.


Quickmere Graham wrote:True. This is precisely why we should take a devil-may-care approach to our rhetorical style and actively seek to increase the possibility that such folks will be able to take offense at the things we write. We should point to other examples of snarky writers and insist that any offense taken to our “wit” means people are humorless or missing the point. When we show ourselves ready to give an answer, a defense, to any who asks us the reason for our hope, we must above all eschew meekness and fear, or as other translations have it, gentleness and respect. Brava!


DCP wrote:The point, QG, is that neither I nor Greg Smith have actually been nasty in our writing. Period.

I’m not defending vicious and insulting prose. I don’t write such prose, and I don’t endorse it.


Quickmere Graham wrote:You’re a saint Dan. We know you’ve never written a misfired word, ne’er uttered a sneer, never been too dismissive, never employed too much sarcasm in the name of wit, always been charitable, and above all, you’ve always made sure to answer with “gentleness and respect,” as the Pauline scripture which you’ve cited calls for.


DCP wrote:The simple fact is that I’ve been pretty restrained over the years, and that I’m not even remotely the villain that I’ve been portrayed as in certain quarters. Sneer all you want. It won’t change that fact.


Notice how he says, "I've been pretty restrained over the years." The clear implication here is, as I've said, that he's holding back. He has to bite his tongue in order to prevent himself from saying what he really means. And that's a scary thought. In light of all the stuff we've seen from him over the past couple of decades or so, can you imagine what sort of nakedly hateful and cruel things he's been bottling up, or reserving solely from the likeminded chaps at Skinny-L? One of the more nasty things he said that springs immediately to mind was his dismissal of Will Bagley as a "lying, venomous gasbag." There are also plenty of examples from the FARMS Review, along with all the SHIELDS stuff and his messageboard postings.

Ultimately, the posting is kind of sad. On the one hand, it suggests that these Mopologists are aware that there's a problem. On the other hand, it shows that they are positively unwilling to address it.
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
_MrStakhanovite
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Re: Why Are They Having This Conversation?

Post by _MrStakhanovite »

In the Aftermath is comprised of observations on culture, religion, and society at large, all in the acrobatic prose readers expect from Hart. Here I want - at least, in part - to entertain. This is not to say that the pieces gathered here are not serious in their arguments; quite the contrary. . . . I mean only that, in these articles, I have given my natural inclinations towards satire and towards wantonly profligate turns of phrase far freer rein than academic writing permits. I hope the better part of my readers will not find these aspects of my authorial voice insufferable; I even hope they will take some pleasure in my prose (though perhaps that is most likely only if it is taken in measured doses). I have, at any rate, attempted to include only pieces that strike me as having some intrinsic interest, both in form and in content. - David Bentley Hart (from the introduction)


Emphasis mine...

SAUCE
_3sheets2thewind
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Re: Why Are They Having This Conversation?

Post by _3sheets2thewind »

"Pretty restrained over the years"

So long as his self martyrdom and nasty response make up less than 0.001% of his total online activity then he is True Saint and you are a bitch propagandist
_brade
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Re: Why Are They Having This Conversation?

Post by _brade »

LOL.

"We're OK, guys. Right? Right? Yeah, yeah. I always knew we were cool, but I just wanted to hear it from myself."
_Doctor Scratch
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Re: Why Are They Having This Conversation?

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

Ah, how nice--I see that there are more comments:

DCP wrote:A certain percentage of the population, at any given time, will object to just about anything. Even our greatest presidents haven’t received 100% of the vote, even our greatest films are disliked by some in the audience, the funniest jokes always leave a few people cold.

Mormons, on the whole, are exceptionally nice people. Some will find some specimens of satirical humor or irony off-putting. Some will find just about any direct confrontation of ideas uncomfortable.

But neither I nor the Review that I edited for nearly a quarter of a century have been vicious, mean-spirited, or slanderous. The accusation that we have been is, itself, slanderous and false.


Gerald Smith wrote:All said and done, Spong really IS an idiot!


Quickmere Graham wrote:My criticism of some of Daniel’s work (some of it, certainly not all of it) isn’t done under the umbrella of religious apologetics. Daniel justifies his work by citing Paul (see his recent FAIR address) but doesn’t actually employ the entire verse. It’s true that some have exaggerated Dan’s faults. It isn’t true, in my view, that he has never taken it too far with sarcasm.

Interesting to note, Daniel himself hasn’t complained about my tone.


DCP wrote:Since we’re speaking flatly, I’ll simply say: I don’t write nasty prose. I haven’t been vicious. Period.


So, what counts as "vicious"? Talking trash about Ritner? Saying derogatory things about homosexuals, or making comments about Ron Priddis's "alternative lifestyle"?:

DCP wrote:And Ron Priddis? Well, what can I say? Ron is an old friend of mine. We served in the same mission, although (for reasons that may become evident) we have become rather estranged. He is not a scholar, has no advanced degree, works for an openly dissident Mormon publishing house that consistently prints books hostile to central LDS (and Christian) positions, is disaffected from the Church and -- he told me so himself, so I am not spreading a rumor -- is involved in what we sometimes euphemistically call an Alternative Lifestyle.


http://www.shields-research.org/Critics/CC02.htm

What about printing "Metcalfe is Butthead"? What about the various fights picked with Signature Books? What about the GA-esque condemnations of Rollo Tomasi? What about the remark that "stupid books deserve to be ridiculed"?
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
_MsJack
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Re: Why Are They Having This Conversation?

Post by _MsJack »

MrStakhanovite wrote:
In the Aftermath is comprised of observations on culture, religion, and society at large, all in the acrobatic prose readers expect from Hart. Here I want - at least, in part - to entertain. This is not to say that the pieces gathered here are not serious in their arguments; quite the contrary. . . . I mean only that, in these articles, I have given my natural inclinations towards satire and towards wantonly profligate turns of phrase far freer rein than academic writing permits. I hope the better part of my readers will not find these aspects of my authorial voice insufferable; I even hope they will take some pleasure in my prose (though perhaps that is most likely only if it is taken in measured doses). I have, at any rate, attempted to include only pieces that strike me as having some intrinsic interest, both in form and in content. - David Bentley Hart (from the introduction)


Emphasis mine...

SAUCE

Stak just won the thread.

I'm at a loss as to how honestly thinking either Dan or the Review have been "vicious or mean-spirited" can be slanderous. To illustrate with some examples from Dan's side of the fence, his friend and former occasional Review contributor Russell C McGregor recently wrote in an online message board post that I am an "extreme feminist," "female supremicist" and possible "man-hater." His other "good friend" and would-be JBMORS contributor, William Schryver, has called me a "feminazi," "deceitful," "propagandist," and "anti-Mormon." While I certainly think those are vicious and mean-spirited things to say, and that any reasonable evaluation of the evidence would find those statements to be false, I don't think they were slanderous (or rather, libelous). I have no doubt that in Schryver-McGregor bizarro world, a pro-life Republican attending a conservative evangelical Christian divinity school counts as an "extreme feminist" and "feminazi," or that things like decrying the sexualization of women who want to engage in dialogue and debate counts as "female supremacism." Etc. So long as they sincerely believe their own allegations, and those allegations are subjective opinions of sorts, then their attacks on me are not libelous. Vicious, mean-spirited, and arguably false, but not libelous.

OTOH, for Schryver to insinuate that I am guilty of forgery without presenting a scrap of evidence to that effect was libelous. Likewise, Dan has a better case that those accusing the Review of slander are themselves engaging in slander, if they present no evidence for that. The charge of "slander" isn't generally a subjective opinion in the same sense that the charge of "vicious" is.
"It seems to me that these women were the head (κεφάλαιον) of the church which was at Philippi." ~ John Chrysostom, Homilies on Philippians 13

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_Drifting
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Re: Why Are They Having This Conversation?

Post by _Drifting »

They seem to be conducting the online equivalent of a 'group hug'...
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_Doctor Scratch
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Re: Why Are They Having This Conversation?

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

Perhaps I'm misreading him, but Dr. Peterson appears to be saying that there are things that were printed in the Review that he now regrets.
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
_Kishkumen
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Re: Why Are They Having This Conversation?

Post by _Kishkumen »

brade wrote:LOL.

"We're OK, guys. Right? Right? Yeah, yeah. I always knew we were cool, but I just wanted to hear it from myself."


Exactly.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Kishkumen
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Re: Why Are They Having This Conversation?

Post by _Kishkumen »

Drifting wrote:They seem to be conducting the online equivalent of a 'group hug'...


Yep.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
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