Book of Mormon plagiarism and MAD thread banning
Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:26 pm
I was thread banned here.
http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/587 ... ge__st__60
I was going to post this in the MAD thread, but this post is the result of a lot of analysis and so forgive me if I think it deserves its own thread. I'd like to hear comments on my theory regarding the Paul's thorn plagiarism I refer to at the end of this post.
I ruffled some feathers by saying that Kevin Christensen was being deceptive referencing Nibley referencing the logic that Moroni and Paul had the same ancient source for faith, hope, and charity. When in actuality the source is questionable and it's from the Classical Greek period, not anything old enough Moroni would have had access to through the Brass Plates.
Since I can't defend myself there, I'll do it here.
This was one of the original issues that got me thinking as a TBM about 10 years ago. I researched it and even had an email exchange with Brant Gardner who I found had made a blog post somewhere on this--same stuff about a common ancient source. I was satisfied with the answer.
A few years ago (after losing my testimony at this point) I brought this up on MAD and Kevin Christensen (who, although he annoys me to no end by making long posts that say absolutely nothing, I believe is a super nice guy) made this same claim. In the thread, another apologist with better information stepped up and corrected KC by explaining Nibley's "source" was not that solid and it's a dead end in Greece, hundreds of years after Nephi left Jerusalem.
KC knows this logic and he continues to use the argument. I called him on it, and he pleaded ignorance. They thread banned me when someone else jumped in to repeat the theory and I repeated my CFR.
I don't know why this issue is not a bigger deal for people. Almost everything Moroni says is ripped off from Paul.
--faith, hope, charity
--Ether 12 first part compare to Hebrews 11
--gifts of the spirit
But the kicker is not just the ripping off of his doctrine, but ripping off an actual event Ether 12 and 2 Cor 12.
Paul and Moroni both have a weakness. They both pray to God. They both are given "No" answers. They both are given the answer "grace is sufficient". This phrase is so unique that it occurs exactly once in the KJV and once in the Book of Mormon. The passage also includes the proximity of the words strength and weakness. A proximity search of multiple variations of these words is found in 9 chapters in KJV and 7 in Book of Mormon. The word fool is also somewhat rare, but is found in both passages. It's found in 28 chapters in the KJV (excluding Proverbs and Ecclesiastes where the word is pretty common) and 6 in the Book of Mormon.
Doctrine can have common sources. But actual, literal events should not.
http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/587 ... ge__st__60
I was going to post this in the MAD thread, but this post is the result of a lot of analysis and so forgive me if I think it deserves its own thread. I'd like to hear comments on my theory regarding the Paul's thorn plagiarism I refer to at the end of this post.
I ruffled some feathers by saying that Kevin Christensen was being deceptive referencing Nibley referencing the logic that Moroni and Paul had the same ancient source for faith, hope, and charity. When in actuality the source is questionable and it's from the Classical Greek period, not anything old enough Moroni would have had access to through the Brass Plates.
Since I can't defend myself there, I'll do it here.
This was one of the original issues that got me thinking as a TBM about 10 years ago. I researched it and even had an email exchange with Brant Gardner who I found had made a blog post somewhere on this--same stuff about a common ancient source. I was satisfied with the answer.
A few years ago (after losing my testimony at this point) I brought this up on MAD and Kevin Christensen (who, although he annoys me to no end by making long posts that say absolutely nothing, I believe is a super nice guy) made this same claim. In the thread, another apologist with better information stepped up and corrected KC by explaining Nibley's "source" was not that solid and it's a dead end in Greece, hundreds of years after Nephi left Jerusalem.
KC knows this logic and he continues to use the argument. I called him on it, and he pleaded ignorance. They thread banned me when someone else jumped in to repeat the theory and I repeated my CFR.
I don't know why this issue is not a bigger deal for people. Almost everything Moroni says is ripped off from Paul.
--faith, hope, charity
--Ether 12 first part compare to Hebrews 11
--gifts of the spirit
But the kicker is not just the ripping off of his doctrine, but ripping off an actual event Ether 12 and 2 Cor 12.
Paul and Moroni both have a weakness. They both pray to God. They both are given "No" answers. They both are given the answer "grace is sufficient". This phrase is so unique that it occurs exactly once in the KJV and once in the Book of Mormon. The passage also includes the proximity of the words strength and weakness. A proximity search of multiple variations of these words is found in 9 chapters in KJV and 7 in Book of Mormon. The word fool is also somewhat rare, but is found in both passages. It's found in 28 chapters in the KJV (excluding Proverbs and Ecclesiastes where the word is pretty common) and 6 in the Book of Mormon.
Doctrine can have common sources. But actual, literal events should not.