Yesterday in Church . . .

[_consiglieri]

Yesterday in fast and testimony meeting, a lady got up and announced that she was a former member of the church, then turned to ask the bishop whether it were okay for her to speak. Our bishop gave her the go ahead, and she said that the only reason she was here was because she brought her aged and infirm parents to meetings.

She mentioned that she did not necessarily believe everything Mormons teach anymore, but she thought there were many things that were good about the church.

Later in Sunday school, our teacher was going over the middle chapters in Helaman and, true to the manual, had put up on the board the cycle of “righteousness/prosperity” to “pride/wickedness” to “destruction” to “humility/repentance” and back to the top of “righteousness/prosperity” again.

I mentioned to my wife that this correlated cycle was evil in that it equated righteousness with prosperity. Not bad enough on its own, it also suggested poverty to be equal with wickedness.

This same lady raised her hand and indicated she had become disaffected due to the fact that, back when she was a Mormon, she was trying to do everything right, was not prideful or wicked, and yet she received “destruction” from God.

The teacher jumped to the next point without addressing her question, which I commented on to my wife. Just before I raised my hand, another guy in the audience whom I know and respect (a former bishopric member) raised his hand and brought it back to the point the lady had raised.

After church, I passed this lady in the hallway, introduced myself, and told her I appreciated her comments in sacrament meeting. I then told her, “I want you to know you are always welcome here, no matter what path you are traveling.”

She seemed to appreciate the sentiment.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[_RockSlider]

Fifth columnist … birds of a feather stick together.

[_Zelder]

Well what happened when your friend brought the topic back? What did he say and how did the teacher react?

[_Abaddon]

“righteousness/prosperity” to “pride/wickedness” to “destruction” to “humility/repentance” and back to the top of “righteousness/prosperity”

---

Yeah, that is a stupid cycle.

I wonder what that woman's idea of God's destruction on her really was. Bankruptcy? A lost marriage?

I was talking to a wonderful young woman last night that truly looked into the abyss and the abyss looked into her, but she came out of it incredibly strong-willed. A child of molestation and sex-slavery. I asked if she believed in God and she said "No. How could I? I was innocent and my own father and strangers took it away from me."

I look at myself and see how far from the Mormon path I've gone and the wonderful things that have happened to me since I left.

I told my parents, "If God is trying to get me back to the fold, then he is doing a crappy job because good things keep happening to me."

They say it's because I'm still a good person and God is blessing me. (Anything they can say to make the Mormon paradigm work.) They have no idea. What I do may not be offensive to non-Mormons, but it surely would get my temple recommend and more taken away from me if I was an active Mormon still.

(Sorry about being all over the place in this response, but perhaps some of it was on-topic.)

[_consiglieri]

Well what happened when your friend brought the topic back? What did he say and how did the teacher react?

I wasn't too thrilled about what he said afterward, but was glad he brought the class back to the lady's issue.

What he said was that sometimes really bad things happen even when we are trying our best as a trial of our faith.

As I say, at least it was an answer.

And I am not really in a position to say he was wrong.

At a fundamental level, it certainly is a trial of our faith, regardless of whether our faith is in something that is true.

I think the reason this impacts me so strongly is because one of the reasons I came to question my faith is this very experience of my own--being totally torpedoed with devastation while in the midst of trying my hardest to do everything right.

This happened first in 1992-1994.

And then something even worse happened in May of 2002. This began what I refer to as my summer of darkness. The mists have not completely dissipated.

At some point, I had to wake up, smell the coffee, and wonder whether anything I did or did not do made any difference.

So it is fair to say I am sensitive about the issue.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[_SteelHead]

If prosperity is the reward for obedience to god, then god must love muslim oil sheiks.

[_consiglieri]

They say it's because I'm still a good person and God is blessing me. (Anything they can say to make the Mormon paradigm work.) They have no idea. What I do may not be offensive to non-Mormons, but it surely would get my temple recommend and more taken away from me if I was an active Mormon still.

After class I went up to this friend of mine who had brought the class back to the lady's issue and thanked him for realizing her question had not been answered and doing something about it.

He appreciated my seeing that, and said somewhere along the line that it is important for us to count our blessings.

I agreed, but added it is also important to not give God a pass on the cursings.

(The things that come out of my mouth sometimes . . . )

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[_bcspace]

In our lesson Sunday, the undercurrent against the Democrats was very strong (and rightfully so) when we were discussing the murder of Pahoran. The teacher was trying to get across the notion of political unity but the conversation almost got to the point of asking the question of when it is okay for Mormons to rebel against the government. I was prepared to steer the conversation to D&C 134:1-4 as a line that could be drawn the crossing of which Mormons could rebel (there is also a line in vs 4 about religions on which a line can be drawn against say, Islam as a valid religion) but the teacher skipped to the next points which was fine because everyone in the room was on the same side anyway.

[_krose]

After church, I passed this lady in the hallway, introduced myself, and told her I appreciated her comments in sacrament meeting.

And thus we witness your continued sad, yet inevitable, slide down the path to complete apostasy.
[/exit 'why me' emulation mode]

gambare!

[_kairos]

has not anyone read the book of Job in th LDS church? and tried to understand that the cosmos of which God is in total control is not dualistic in terms of good and evil?
no human in the history of the planet can answer the question of good and evil in the the lives of human beings. the closest best answer comes from franciscan richard rohr and it is pretty simple rohr says "God will have the last word"
just sayin

k