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I have known about most of the "troubling issues" of the Church since doing a deep dive in college about 15 years ago. My testimony was severely shaken and forever altered, but ultimately preserved through more study and prayer, discussions with folks like Richard Bushman, Daniel Peterson, and (most importantly) many wonderul mentors in the BYU History department. Bill Hamblin did his best to push me into full apostasy, but fortunately he was not the only apologist I talked to back then. Looking back now, it is clear that I relied heavily on the catalyst theory for Book of Abraham issues, and Ostler's Book of Mormon expansion theory for Book of Mormon issues, and I put a lot of other troubling issues on the shelf (polygamy, racism, homosexuality, etc.) by embracing the typical responses (prophets are fallible men, God's ways are not our ways, "postmodern" critiques of science, blah blah blah . . .)

As I mentioned on another thread, I then managed to really thrive in several East Coast and European wards. Right now, however, I am really struggling with attending Church. I have focused a great deal on epistemology in my personal studies over the past year, and I have come to really doubt the efficacy of prayer and faith to discern "truth." I don't want this to turn into a thread on epistemology, but just in case anyone reading this thinks I have gone all "gah gah" for science a la Kerry Shirts, let me assure you that I am well aware of the epistemological problems of science.

Given my current perspective on prayer and religious faith in general, reading scriptures and attending meetings is not helping me at all. I sincerely try to be "honest in my dealings" and right now I don't feel like I am being honest. Like many others here, I am instead staying in "the closet" and putting on the mask in order to keep the peace at home. I am not going to be able to continue this for much longer, however.

I have been posting for a few months here, and I believe that there are some here that have mentioned returning to belief and activity after a period of inactivity (or even full apostasy in the case of Don Bradley). If you are one of those folks, did you find that "coming out" and going inactive for a time actually helped you in your faith journey? I know that I am going to have to come out and break the news to my family soon (otherwise I will go crazy), and so I would be interested in hearing from those who went inactive for a time and then came back later. I am not necessarily really looking to regain my testimony and I do not know where my spirtual journey will lead me, but I am curious to hear from others that have been in a similar position, and to hear how things turned out for them.

As one who has had the experience of politely, if regretfully, saying farewell to a lot of things that I once though indispensable, I would like to say that even the idea of describing life events in terms of a "spiritual journey" can end up seeming like something from a quite imaginary world.

Given my current perspective on prayer and religious faith in general, reading scriptures and attending meetings is not helping me at all. I sincerely try to be "honest in my dealings" and right now I don't feel like I am being honest. Like many others here, I am instead staying in "the closet" and putting on the mask in order to keep the peace at home. I am not going to be able to continue this for much longer, however.

There's a lot more to living the gospel than just prayer, scripture study, and attending meetings. Any Primary child could give the same answer. The Primary answers aren't going to satisfy or work for adults. If homosexuality is your problem, it can be overcome. If it's objections to church history and foundational claims, I've been down just about every rabbit hole there is and there is nothing catastrophic for the Church. The doctrine and scriptures are perfect; he who has ears to hear, let him hear.

You want to believe but just can't? Yes, the problem is not with the Church. And if it takes you leaving it because you are offended by what I just said to figure that out, so be it. You don't have to give up anything of actual worth to believe the Church. Nor do you have to sell your soul or reduce your intelligence or suspend disbelief. You can accept all science. You do have to give up some worldly philosophies that lead one to trust in man and his passions (or government) rather than God. It's called faith. You have some because you want to believe. The question is, are you going to actually act on it or not?

bcspace wrote:

Given my current perspective on prayer and religious faith in general, reading scriptures and attending meetings is not helping me at all. I sincerely try to be "honest in my dealings" and right now I don't feel like I am being honest. Like many others here, I am instead staying in "the closet" and putting on the mask in order to keep the peace at home. I am not going to be able to continue this for much longer, however.

There's a lot more to living the gospel than just prayer, scripture study, and attending meetings. Any Primary child could give the same answer. The Primary answers aren't going to satisfy or work for adults. If homosexuality is your problem, it can be overcome. If it's objections to church history and foundational claims, I've been down just about every rabbit hole there is and there is nothing catastrophic for the Church. The doctrine and scriptures are perfect.

You want to believe but just can't? Yes, the problem is not with the Church. And if it takes you leaving it because you are offended by what I just said to figure that out, so be it. You don't have to give up anything of actual worth to believe the Church. Nor do you have to sell your soul or reduce your intelligence or suspend disbelief. You can accept all science. You do have to give up some worldly philosophies that lead one to trust in man and his passions (or government) rather than God. It's called faith. You have some because you want to believe. The question is, are you going to actually act on it or not?

You missed the bit about giving up 10% of your income...

I think that often too much weight is put by people on the road to disbelief in the church on being "honest" with everyone about what we're thinking.

I don't know how old you are, or if you were in the church your whole life, but it took the church however many years that is to get you to the state you were in just prior to your doubts forming. It may take quite some time before you really settle down in your new beliefs and attitudes. I can see no good reason why you should feel rushed into it.

As a personal note, I have seen remarkable evolution in my attitudes over the last 7 years since I first entertained the possibility that the church might not be true. If I had thought that whatever I felt at any given time early on was the way it was going to be forever, I'd have been seriously mistaken. My evolution has taken me from caring what the church (meaning bishop, wardmembers, relatives, etc.) thought about my unbelief, to where I honestly couldn't give a s***. I didn't stop wearing my garments immediately, didn't stop attending church immediately, didn't start drinking coffee or other things immediately, etc.

As far as the "honesty" question goes: you go to church and they talk about Noah's Ark as if it really happened, despite the mountains of evidence we now have that it didn't. If you bring this up in Sunday School, I guarantee you that 99.999% of the time the teacher will decline to continue that conversation, sidestepping it instead. Is that honest? Is that a real, good-faith attempt to get at truth, rather than just continue teaching the church's party line? Noah's Ark is just one example of many such examples of problematic teachings that almost nobody in church is ever willing to get into with people like us. In other words, the entire atmosphere in church is one of intellectual conformity with the established church doctrines, not the pursuit of truth. It is a fundamentally intellectually dishonest environment.

And is this the environment where you feel compelled to "come out" and tell everyone everything you're thinking, out of some need to be entirely honest and truthful?

As Elder Packer once ironically stated, some truths are not very useful. If you're ready to come out and tell people you no longer believe then fine, go for it. If you don't feel ready, don't rush it. Let it mellow for a while. I guarantee you it will evolve, and your attitudes will change.

bcspace wrote:You want to believe but just can't? Yes, the problem is not with the Church. And if it takes you leaving it because you are offended by what I just said to figure that out, so be it. You don't have to give up anything of actual worth to believe the Church. Nor do you have to sell your soul or reduce your intelligence or suspend disbelief. You can accept all science. You do have to give up some worldly philosophies that lead one to trust in man and his passions (or government) rather than God. It's called faith. You have some because you want to believe. The question is, are you going to actually act on it or not?

You just have to give up listening to what the LDS Prophets, Seers, and Revelators have actually taught for the last 170 years or so, and keep BCSpace on speed-dial, so that if you have any doctrinal issues you can find out what the LDS church really believes.

bcspace wrote:There's a lot more to living the gospel than just prayer, scripture study, and attending meetings. Any Primary child could give the same answer. The Primary answers aren't going to satisfy or work for adults. If homosexuality is your problem, it can be overcome. If it's objections to church history and foundational claims, I've been down just about every rabbit hole there is and there is nothing catastrophic for the Church.

I agree that there is no silver bullet or smoking gun out there that should automatically demolish the testimony of any person of reasonable intelligence and integrity, and it really irks me when antis or exmos argue the contrary. I have no problems with homosexuality . . . not that there is anything wrong with that (I'm somewhere between a zero and a negative 1 on the Kinsey scale), but I do have issues with Church doctrine and policies regarding homsosexuality.

bcspace wrote:The doctrine and scriptures are perfect;

bcspace wrote:You want to believe but just can't? Yes, the problem is not with the Church . . . It's called faith. You have some because you want to believe. The question is, are you going to actually act on it or not?

If only it was that simple.

BCSpace wrote:It's called faith. You have some because you want to believe. The question is, are you going to actually act on it or not?

Acting on something that you want to believe, so that you come to believe it, is called reinforcement and conditioning. It's not called learning the truth.

For David Whitmer to request his testimony be put on his tombstone after he died, he must have saw something. And for Oliver to bear his testimony to wife and daughter on his deathbed must mean that he experienced something. And Martin died faithful and gave his deathbed testimony too. How to explain it?

You have doubts and yet, these men had no doubts. They experienced something marvelous and it changed their lives. No doubts about what they experienced at all. Think about it.

Cicero wrote:
If only it was that simple.

Looking at the witnesses, it does seem simple.

"He...died at the age of forty-four with consumption in Richmond, Ray County, Missouri. And just before he breathed his last, he asked to be raised up in bed so he could talk to the family and friends, and he told them to live according to the teachings in the Book of Mormon, and they would meet him in heaven. Then he said, ‘Lay me down and let me fall asleep in the arms of Jesus.’ And he fell asleep without a struggle."

Letter of Lucy Cowdery Young to historian Andrew Jenson, Mar. 7, 1887, LDS archives.

"Elder Phineas H. Young, who was present at the death of Oliver Cowdery, at Richmond, Missouri, March 3 1850, says, ‘His last moments were spent in bearing testimony of the truth of the gospel revealed through Joseph Smith, and the power of the holy priesthood which he had received through his administrations.’

"Andrew Jenson, The Historical Record (Salt Lake City: Andrew Jenson, 1889), p. 202.

I also testify to the world, that neither Oliver Cowdery or Martin Harris ever at any time denied their testimony. They both died reaffirming the truth of the divine authenticity of the Book of Mormon. I was present at the death bed of Oliver Cowdery, and his last words were, 'Brother David, be true to your testimony to the Book of Mormon.' He died here in Richmond, Mo., on March 3d, 1850. Many witnesses yet live in Richmond, who will testify to the truth of these facts, as well as to the good character of Oliver Cowdery"

David Whitmer, Address to All Believers in Christ (Richmond, Mo.: David Whitmer, 1887), p. 8.