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How reliable are these recollections by Samuel D. Green?

Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 9:22 pm
by _Mary
Came across Samuel D. Green's recollections about Joseph Smith whilst trying to find links to Jacob Cochran and the Cochranites.

http://www.truthandgrace.com/1877joememory.htm

In particular Samuel recalls Joseph boarding with Jacob Cochran and knowing him intimately. Other fascinating recollections also.

Is this all anti-mormon rubbish or have any of the recollections been investigated?

Mary

Re: How reliable are these recollections by Samuel D. Green?

Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:26 pm
by _Mary
Golly Dale's stuff gets around. Just found a link to the same article which is obviously the source for the Truth and Grace article. (with added notes to boot).

http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/IL ... htm#122077

Dale notes:

Did Samuel D. Greene confused Batavia's "James Cochran" with Maine's Prophe Jacob Cochran, or did Jacob Cochran (Cochrane/Cockrane) travel incognito, calling himself "James" during a mid-1820s visit to western New York? Has Greene confused the names "Cowdery" and "Cockrane? or "George W. Harris," "James Harris," and "Martin Harris?" Was George W. Harris (who later "shared" his wife, Lucinda Morgan Harris, with Joseph Smith, Jr.) a disciple of Jacob Cochran? Was the Masonic author, Rob Morris, correct when he identified Lucinda's first husband (William Morgan) as having been "a half way convert of Joe Smith"? Did Joseph Smith's cousin, Oliver Cowdery, reside with his brother Warren near Batavia during the infamous "Morgan Affair?" Did Oliver truly act as a part-time scribe for William Morgan? Did Oliver go from working at the Orleans Co. Newport Patriot to David C. Miller's Republican Advocate in adjacent Genesee Co., in 1825? Did Cowdery assist Morgan and Miller in the preparation of Morgan's 1826 book Illustrations of Masonry? Did a young Joseph Smith travel west, during the early 1820s, in search of a seer-stone, "on the South side of Lake Erie, not far from the New York and Pennsylvania line"? None of these queries are well answered in Mr. Greene's account -- it raises more questions than it answers.



I've just been checking out Samuel's history (which is incredibly fascinating in itself). He was in Batavia. He did own a public house. He did experience a lot of masonic persecution (or so it seems), for not wishing to go along with the murder of William Morgan.

In his recollections he remembers Joseph having 3 stones, and fortune telling for the girls, who were quite taken with him. (Very believable in terms of what we know about Joseph's character now)

If no one has been through these recollections with a fine tooth comb, then golly they should.

Is Dale the only one who has looked into this, or is there anyone else.

Apologies if I am behind the times.

Mary

Re: How reliable are these recollections by Samuel D. Green?

Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:37 pm
by _Chap
Mary wrote:...
Is this all anti-mormon rubbish or have any of the recollections been investigated?

Mary


If any text is generally favorable to the character of the Prophet Joseph Smith, then it is reliable.

Any text in any way derogatory to the character of the Prophet Joseph Smith is, ipso facto, anti-mormon rubbish.

Didn't you know that?

Or alternatively: Supposing the stories about Joseph Smith's peepstone activity are true, then they just go to show that the Lord was preparing him for his great task of translating the Book of Mormon by the gift and power of God. Telling girls' fortunes and finding lost pocketbooks was great practice for all that.

Will you antis never give up?

Re: How reliable are these recollections by Samuel D. Green?

Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:42 pm
by _Madison54
If Joe is around, I'd love to read his input on this.

Here's something else from UD:
Early Mormons in Allegany Co., NY

From the currently available evidence it is impossible to confirm Samuel D. Greene's 1877 recollections of Jacob Cochran and Joseph Smith, Jr. being together at Batavia, fifty years before. Even Cochran's supposed appearance in the western NY town is not established fact. No newspaper record has yet been located to document his holding any meetings in Batavia (in stark contrast to the local paper's 1832 report of traveling Mormon missionaries preaching in the same Genesee Co. court-house where Greene states that Cochran had previously done his preaching). What really happened? It might be helpful to know if the 1829 report of Jacob Cochran's prostylizing in "Hamburg" NY originated from Erie Co., Tompkins Co., or a "Hamburg" nearer New England, such as in Greene or Dutchess counties. Maine historian Joyce Butler refers to the 1829 letter from a "Hamburg, New York selectman" as being possible evidence for Cochran's presence in "upstate New York," but she does not pinpoint the origin of that letter. Another intriguing hint of Cochran's hidden past comes in the 1827 report provided by Hull Barton, saying that Cochran had with him, at Hollis, Maine, "a spiritual companion in addition to his natural one... along with "Two... State Prison convicts... lately from New-York." Perhaps these associates were converts whom Cochran made while he was in prison, and perhaps their New York connections supplied him with incentive and means to visit the Empire State, following his 1824 release from incarceration.

Does an early crossing of Joseph Smith's and Jacob Cochran's paths explain why the first Mormon conversions and branch-establishment in Allegany occured in Grove township, and in the townships round about? Mormon Elder John P. Greene's 1832 missionizing in northern Allegany must have brought him into contact with Cochranite colonists there. Greene was seeking to make converts near (or among) the New York Cochranites at the same time that his co-religionists, elders Orson Hyde and Samuel H. Smith were spreading the Mormon gospel among the Cochranite remnants of the Saco Valley, in far off Maine (a spot Greene himself would visit in 1836). Was all of this mere coincidence, or evidence of a little-known Latter Day Saint effort to bring the followers of Jacob Cochran into the Mormon fold?

Although John P. Greene (a brother-in-law of Brigham Young) did not raise up any Mormon branches in Allegany in 1832, his son Elder Evan M. Greene and Evan's missonary companion Elder John Gould, had better luck two years later. By November of 1834 Gould had established the first Mormon branch in that county -- in Grove township, the western half of which (now called Granger) was the home of the New York Cochranites. Of all the towns and hamlets of Allegany, why were did residents of that place become the county's first Mormons? Were the 1835 Grove, Burns and Portage LDS branches in nothern Allegany Co., New York (raised up by Elder Andrew J. Squires) made up primarily of ex-Cochranite colonists, who recognized a very similar religion in Mormonism? Did "spiritual wifery" come secretly into the LDS Church with these Allegany converts -- because of those same Cochranite-Mormonite religious affinities? Did Lyman Wight carry Cochranite beliefs and practices with him from northern Allegany Co., when he migrated to northern Ohio? Such questions remain unanswered. William Marks, who was closest to these scenes of the first Mormon missionizing in Allegany, left no record of the events. The missionary journals of Evan M. Greene and John Gould are not available for consultation. And it is unlikely that Richard and Pamela Price (the only contemporary Latter Day Saint writers on this subject) will supply much in the way of helpful investigation into this "black hole" realm of forgotten Mormon origins -- and no other "Mormon historians" appear to be interested in the Cochranism topic whatsoever. Perhaps, then, such questions are not merely unanswered, but will forver remain unanswerable.

Dale R. Broadhurst

Re: How reliable are these recollections by Samuel D. Green?

Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:01 pm
by _PrickKicker
PLEASE READ: I know its long but these accounts are founded and recognised as true by BYU & LDS Scholars.
On second thoughts it is just another he did but he didn't, apology


Truth versus Falsehood

“Was not Joseph Smith a money digger?” Yes. So said the Prophet himself in the Elders’ Journal.[2] However, the imputations of all manner of interaction with the supernatural in his pursuit of treasure are not nearly so credible as the Prophet’s above statement. Witnesses accused Joseph and his family of searching for gold and silver[3] in the form of watches,[4] bars, plates, coins, candlesticks, and so forth[5] by means of a seerstone,[6] protective circles,[7] protective swords,[8] animal sacrifices,[9] divining rods,[10] fortune-telling,[11] and close attention to special days and the phases of the moon.[12] Some believed that Hyrum owned magical parchments[13] and a ritual dagger[14] and that Joseph utilized an astrological Jupiter talisman right up to his martyrdom.[15] Others have claimed that Joseph originally described the golden plates as a treasure left by Captain Kidd that was guarded by a supernatural ghost and that, over time, the tale evolved into a religious story involving the angel Moroni.[16]

What are we to make of these claims? How are we to determine what is reliable and what is not? Some assertions are almost certainly true and stem from those who were closest and most friendly to the Prophet and his family. Some claims are easily dismissed. Yet the veracity of other reports is so muddled and byzantine it is almost impossible to detect truth from falsehood.

What Did Joseph Smith Do?

Examples of speculative critiques include allegations of a magical dagger, parchment, and talisman and the transformation of a treasure ghost into the angel Moroni. While Hyrum may have possessed an ornate dagger (the ownership is not clear), many people in his day had something similar. None of those who accused the family of magical involvement say anything about a dagger in their detailed descriptions of treasure seeking, and there is no evidence that it was seen as anything but a beautiful and useful knife.[17] Attempts to demonstrate more than this have fallen short,[18] and even if Hyrum held some superstitious beliefs about the knife it would make little difference. One day we may very well look back at our own lives with chagrin about some superstitions we unknowingly carry. They have little to do with our belief in correct principles. Similar problems exist with assertions made regarding the parchment and talisman.[19] These claims are just unsubstantiated.

Likewise, a careful analysis of the documents involved show that Moroni was represented as an angel even in the earliest accounts.[20] Statements by Joseph’s enemies describing Moroni as a treasure ghost arose in 1830 and grew from there;[21] it was these stories that evolved and changed over time, not descriptions of Moroni as an angel.[22]

While good research clarifies the above claims, in other allegations the evidence is so convoluted that no amount of study will yield a sure conclusion. Records of an 1826 trial and the 1833 affidavits against Joseph Smith comprise the bulk of the allegations that Joseph trafficked in the supernatural while searching for treasure. Many aspects of these documents argue against their veracity while others support it.

In the fall of 1833, D. P. Hurlbut arrived in Palmyra searching for accounts of Joseph Smith’s early history and character.[23] Hurlbut had been excommunicated, put under restraining order to prevent him from harming Joseph Smith, and was hired by an anti-Mormon group to collect testimonies that would verify the views of that group. The people he interviewed told stories about Joseph Smith Sr. and Jr. using all kinds of supernatural aids in their quest for treasure. Some of the most bizarre of these tales include finding the treasure by means of a seerstone[24] or divining rod;[25] creating magic circles with metal stakes,[26] witch hazel stakes,[27] or even the blood of sacrificed sheep;[28] and of finding treasure that kept moving through the ground of its own volition so that it could never quite be grasped.[29] Some also spoke of young Joseph using his stone to tell fortunes.[30]

While space does not permit a full analysis of Hurlbut’s recorded interviews, it must be acknowledged that there are a number of historical problems with these affidavits. First of all, they bear a striking resemblance to Abner Cole’s satirical, fanciful report of treasure seeking in the Book of Mormon,[31] and to a newspaper account of a different Smith family from Rochester, New York.[32] Moreover, inconsistencies among the statements and among later interviews cast some doubt on the authenticity of the affidavits.[33] For example, William Stafford claimed to have known the Smiths quite well. He provided stories about the Smiths using witch hazel stakes and the blood of a sheep while looking for treasure.[34] However, when asked about Stafford’s statement, his son (who was Joseph’s age) claimed that his father was not connected with the Smiths in any way, and that he did not believe the story about the sheep was true.[35] Many interviews and statements gathered from the Smith neighbors by less hostile interviewers paint a very different picture of the family than those gathered by Hurlbut.[36]

Such problems with sources make it difficult to know what information from the affidavits we can trust. Yet confirming testimonies from Latter-day Saint witnesses lend validity to some of the Hurlbut reports. For example, Joshuah Stafford writes “Joseph once showed me a piece of wood which he said he took from a box of money, and the reason he gave for not obtaining the box, was, that it moved.”[37] Later reports by Latter-day Saints in Utah claimed that, while treasure hunting with Joseph, Martin Harris and Porter Rockwell grabbed the lid of a chest, which slid away from them. A fragment of the lid broke off, and they kept it as a prized relic for years.[38] Brigham Young believed this story.[39] Other affidavits speak of Joseph finding gold watches,[40] and later Church members who knew Joseph also held this to be true.[41] It seems then, that there is some accuracy in the affidavits. What are we to make of these contradictory ideas? Are the affidavits reliable or not? Can we use them as evidence?

Similar questions apply to the records concerning an 1826 trial in which Joseph Smith was accused of disorderly conduct—specifically for trying “to discover where lost goods may be found.”[42] The only fully original documents we have from the trial are the bills from the justice of the peace who heard the case and from the constable who brought Joseph to trial. There are three main accounts of the proceedings: (1) an account published nearly one hundred years later, purportedly from pages the justice’s niece ripped from his trial docket book—though no one has been able to produce the actual pages, (2) a publication in Fraser’s Magazine similar but not identical to the account produced by Justice Neely’s niece, and (3) a reminiscence offered fifty years later by Dr. W. D. Purple (who wrote that he was asked to take notes at the court by Justice Neely) which also has distinct variations from the above documents. These accounts disagree about the number, names, and order of the witnesses, and even about the verdict. The evidence from these accounts and the bills have been used to demonstrate both that Joseph was found guilty[43] and that he was acquitted.[44] Further, none of these accounts pretend to be objective, they all include judgments which convey the authors’ harsh perception of the Smiths. This clear bias, the contradictions between the accounts, the lack of original documentation, and the lengthy period between the trial and the creation of any of the extant annals casts doubt on the reliability of these records.

Yet Justice Neely’s actual bill and a later account show that the justice charged $2.68 for his services, a precision that indicates some degree of accuracy. Furthermore, while the three main sources are decidedly anti-Mormon, they all record the strong testimony of Josiah Stowell in behalf of Joseph. His testimony and those of Joseph Smith Sr. and Jr. seem to accord with what we know of the men who made them. For example, Stowell avowed that he knew for certain that Joseph could see things in his seerstone. As proof he testified that when he traveled from Pennsylvania to Palmyra in order to enlist Joseph’s services, he tested Joseph’s ability as a seer. Joseph looked into his stone and described Stowell’s house, outhouses, and a tree with a hand painted on it.[45] When the Justice asked Stowell if he believed Joseph could use the stone to fifty feet below the ground, Stowell replied, “Do I believe it? No, it is not a matter of belief. I positively know it to be true.”[46] Stowell’s actions—employing Joseph and following the Prophet faithfully throughout his life—seem congruent with this statement.

The informal trial notes describe Joseph Jr. saying that when he looked in the seerstone “time, place and distance were annihilated, that all the intervening obstacles were removed, and that he possessed one of the attributes of Deity, an All-seeing-Eye.”[47] These statements are reminiscent of things he said later in life.[48]

According to Dr. Purple’s trial account, Joseph Smith Sr. testified that “both he and his son were mortified that this wonderful power which God had so miraculously given him should be used only in search of filthy lucre, or its equivalent in earthly treasures, and with a long-faced, ‘sanctimonious seeming,’ he said his constant prayer to his Heavenly Father was to manifest His will concerning this marvelous power. He trusted that the Son of Righteousness would some day illumine the heart of the boy, and enable him to see His will concerning Him.”[49] The timing of the rise and fall of treasure seeking in the Smith family seems to confirm the accuracy of these sentiments. Undoubtedly there is some truth in the trial notes, but it is difficult to know what to trust in these problematic documents.

Sifting the Evidence

Given the problems with the affidavits and trial documents, how can we determine what Joseph Smith did in regards to seeking supernatural aid while searching for treasure? The stories behind the documents are so complex that it seems impossible to use them to reconstruct an accurate picture. While the task may seem overwhelming, in actuality there is no point in quibbling over which lines from which documents are trustworthy. There is, however, evidence enough from those close and sympathetic to the Prophet, and from the Prophet himself, to get a general impression of what he did.

Undoubtedly, Joseph helped Josiah Stowell search for treasure, and Josiah sought Joseph’s services because of his abilities as a seer. We have already noted that friends believed Joseph found gold watches and was able to grab part of a treasure chest. Many reports also agree that Joseph used multiple seerstones for a variety of purposes.[50] This is probably what Joseph’s mother was referring to when she said that Josiah Stowell sought out Joseph’s services because he had “heard that [Joseph] ‘possessed certain means [she says “certain keys” in other editions][51] by which he could discern things invisible to the natural eye.’ ”[52] Martin Harris tells an interesting story about Joseph’s use of the stone. Harris was once picking his teeth with a pin when he dropped the pin into some straw. When no one could find it, he asked Joseph to use his seerstone. “He took it and placed it in his hat—the old white hat—and placed his face in his hat. I watched him closely to see that he did not look one side; he reached out his hand beyond me on the right, and moved a little stick, and there I saw the pin, which he picked up and gave to me. I know he did not look out of the hat until after he had picked up the pin.”[53]

Many accounts agree that Joseph could not receive the plates for some time because he associated them with obtaining worldly wealth.[54] Joseph himself describes his first attempt—a failure—to get the plates thus: “I had been tempted of the advisary and saught the Plates to obtain riches and kept not the comandment that I should have an eye single to the glory of God therefore I was chastened.”[55] His mother and Oliver Cowdery both recorded that Joseph could not obtain the plates because he wondered what other valuable things might be in the box.[56] Martin Harris said that Moroni told Joseph he had to quit the company of the money diggers and have nothing more to do with them.[57]

Thus, while examining the trial documents and affidavits may be a worthwhile historical endeavor, in many ways it is just quibbling over the exact manner and extent of Joseph’s treasure seeking efforts. Reliable sources agree that Joseph sought supernatural aid in looking for treasure, and that his desire for treasure was something he had to overcome in order to receive the plates.

Joseph’s Situation

To properly assess Joseph’s activities, we have to understand Joseph’s situation. First, we must understand that Joseph and his family were desperately poor. They had suffered a series of devastating financial setbacks,[58] and it was during the years when Joseph was trying to obtain the plates that they lost their farm.[59] The financial needs of the family must have pressed relentlessly on the minds of Father Smith and his namesake. For them, every event in life was no doubt evaluated in terms of how it impacted the survival of their family.

Second, Joseph was part of a culture that fervently believed experiences with God could be a part of an individual’s life, and that seeking God’s help while searching for treasure was a viable part of Christianity. While this was a part of their religious heritage,[60] it was also a folk-religion reaction against ongoing Protestant movements that largely denied personal interaction with God, especially in tangible forms.[61] Joseph’s struggles to demonstrate that God continued to reveal himself in the lives of men began during this time period and lasted his entire life. Trafficking in the supernatural while searching for treasure was prevalent during his day and in his area,[62] and the participants viewed their activities as a genuine expression of Christianity.[63] Ministers were frequently involved,[64] as were prayer circles[65] and other Christian activities,[66] including the use of divining rods in establishing churches.[67] Those whose religious bent was to put God in a distant sphere castigated those who sought daily interaction with God through such practices, accusing them of employing magic.[68] Many negative characterizations of Joseph Smith reflect and are colored by this cultural conflict.

Joseph’s methods of interacting with the divine may seem strange to us, but this is largely because we are more cultural inheritors of the Protestant movement to remove God from daily life than we are of the folk religion of Joseph’s day. However, as Joseph consulted the Bible, he would have found instances of divining instruments; they were far from unfamiliar in a biblical culture. If David enquired of the Urim and Thummim (seerstones) for directions concerning military strivings (see 1 Samuel 30:7–8), could Joseph not inquire of a seerstone regarding the financial struggles of his family? If Joseph of Egypt used a silver cup for divining (see Genesis 44:5), and the book of Revelation records the use of white stones in receiving revelation (see Revelation 2:17; D&C 130:10–11) couldn’t Joseph also use a seerstone? After all, the Lord said he would prepare “Gazelem, a stone,” which would enable hidden knowledge to come forth (Alma 37:23).[69] If Jacob could use stakes to encourage the fertility of cattle, and Moses could use a rod to bring water to the Israelites, couldn’t divining rods be an appropriate means of communication with God for those who sincerely seek him? (Incidentally, appropriate interaction with God through rods was confirmed by God himself in his revelation to Oliver Cowdery, wherein Oliver was told, according to the earliest versions of Doctrine and Covenants section 6, that he had communed with God through a rod.[70] Similarly, in the earliest versions of section 8, when Oliver was told he had a gift for working with a rod, the rod was originally referred to as a sprout. When the rod was mentioned again, the earliest versions call it “this thing of nature.”[71] It would seem that Oliver had been using some kind of stick in a manner similar to a seerstone.) Is there a real difference between Nephi being told where to hunt through a brass ball and God helping those who believe find lost cows through a rod, or lost pins through a seerstone? Will God direct those who honestly turn to him in whatever manner they expect, or must he always give revelation through a fleece laid on the ground ( Judges 6:36–40)?[72]

In the end, the questions that really bother us may boil down to wondering if Joseph sought for treasure and if he used supernatural means to do so. And, if the answer to these questions is yes, we must ask ourselves if that disqualifies him as a prophet. Is it possible that after seeing God in the grove, Joseph felt he had a special relationship with the divine? And what if, after this experience, he still found the destitute poverty of his family an oppressive need, and he thought that his proven ability to communicate with God might help his family out of their impoverished circumstances? Would such a hope make his later claims to translate by the gift and power of God unbelievable?

It seems to me that there is another, more important question. Shouldn’t we expect the kind of youth who actually believes he can enter a grove of trees and receive an answer to his questions from God to also be the kind of youth who believes that God interacts with his children in their daily lives? Isn’t the characteristic that drove Joseph to the grove, and later to his knees the night Moroni came, the same quality that would lead him to seeking God’s help in all kinds of other things? Should we expect God to refuse interaction with such a youth because he was seeking God in ways not familiar to us? Is it possible that Joseph’s youthful employment of seerstones was a training ground for the great work he would later undertake? Perhaps it happened as Elder Oaks suggested when speaking of Joseph’s possible use of seerstones in searching for treasure: “Line upon line, young Joseph Smith expanded his faith and understanding and his spiritual gifts matured until he stood with power and stature as the Prophet of the Restoration.”[73]

It seems that the great tutorial and test for Joseph was to learn to use his gift only to build the kingdom of God, not for personal reasons.

full story
http://rsc.BYU.edu/archived/no-weapon-shall-prosper/seeking-divine-interaction-joseph-smiths-varying-searches-supernatu

Re: How reliable are these recollections by Samuel D. Green?

Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:08 pm
by _Mary
Chap! Funny..

Madison that quote from Dale is great. Thanks. About sums up the state of the information.

I've been reading the book that Green wrote on the Morgan affair, which is interesting, particularly since secret combinations were such a big no no in the Book of Mormon, and that Joseph later married Morgan's wife.

http://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/006511358

What I like about Green's account is that he admits where he doesn't know information. For instance, concerning Joseph's money digging exploits.

He got angered at a man who had built a foundation to erect a mill. He saw money deposited by an early settler, who sat down by this river and deposited his money in the earth just where the miller was erecting his abutments. Some of Smith's believers went and dug for the money and one of the walls fell. The diggers were disappointed, and helped rebuild it. This is the only act of mischief I ever heard of him, and of this I never searched the truth. It was a report, and whether true or not, I have no knowledge.

Re: How reliable are these recollections by Samuel D. Green?

Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:57 pm
by _Mary
This is interesting:
COCHRANISM - letter to a Portland Maine editor noting that the name of Jacob Cochran is familiar, and for the past two years has "infested" the County of York [Maine] and the towns of Saco, Buxton, Hollis, Kennebunk, came in the guise of a Free-Will Baptist - he was brought to court last week at York - five counts of adultery, lascivious behaviour - one of the jury thought to be Cochran's disciple - Cochran absconded after being convicted - a description of him follows for identification and return to Maine - letter was written by A. B. Wells on May 24 - more including background on the Cochranites' allowance of seven wives, Cochran had half of his female followers as his wives - page two - 11 column inches [NOTE TO BIDDER - Cochran is of intrerest to Mormon historians due to possible roots of the Mormon doctrine of plural marriage or polygamy, also because many of the Cochranites later converted to the Mormon faith and migrated west. Of course, no mention of Mormonism would be mentioned in this 1819 article.


My bold, does this indicate that Cochran was not above going being deceitful in his travels in terms of who he really was???(1819)

http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/1 ... es-saco-me

Re: How reliable are these recollections by Samuel D. Green?

Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:21 pm
by _Joe Geisner
Madison54 wrote:If Joe is around, I'd love to read his input on this.


Madison,

This is quite flattering that you thought of me. Unfortunately I will be a disappointment on this issue.

The little bit I know about this recollection is from what Dale has written and talking with Connell O'Donovan. Here is what Connell wrote me:

"Erin and I've been researching Cochranism for several years now. Unfortunately there are no primary Jacob Cochran documents, beyond his jail sentence. Everything else is second hand at best, and uniformly anti-Cochranite. It's been extremely difficult to sift through all the hysteria surrounding free-love and spiritual wifery to get to what Ole Jake really believed and really practiced."

If Erin and Connell can't find anything, two of the best researchers on the planet, then the pickins are slim! :-)

My first reaction when I read Mary's OP and Green's recollections was this:

Because this is such a late recollection, we have to be quite suspicious. With accounts like Mormon Unvailed we have to give them priority since they are early recollections (the time between the events and the recounting is short), and when we have newspaper accounts like what Erin finds, Mike Marquardt finds or Connell finds, they get higher priority since they are contemporary.

Connell wrote back to me and said that usually this would be correct, but he also pointed out that many late recollections can be very useful and then listed reasons why. If people what to know his reasons, let me know and I will list them.

One example of a late recollection that I found very trust worthy is Samuel Whitney's (Newel's brother) account of Kirtland while Smith was in charge. Whitney's account has multiple details that are verified by contemporary accounts.

I know I have not added anything to the discussion of Green's account, but I think Dale gives a very useful analysis.

Re: How reliable are these recollections by Samuel D. Green?

Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:28 pm
by _Madison54
Joe Geisner wrote:
Madison54 wrote:If Joe is around, I'd love to read his input on this.


Madison,

This is quite flattering that you thought of me. Unfortunately I will be a disappointment on this issue.

The little bit I know about this recollection is from what Dale has written and talking with Connell O'Donovan. Here is what Connell wrote me:

"Erin and I've been researching Cochranism for several years now. Unfortunately there are no primary Jacob Cochran documents, beyond his jail sentence. Everything else is second hand at best, and uniformly anti-Cochranite. It's been extremely difficult to sift through all the hysteria surrounding free-love and spiritual wifery to get to what Ole Jake really believed and really practiced."

If Erin and Connell can't find anything, two of the best researchers on the planet, then the pickins are slim! :-)

I agree. Thank you so much for posting what they had to say on this subject.

Joe Geisner wrote:My first reaction when I read Mary's OP and Green's recollections was this:

Because this is such a late recollection, we have to be quite suspicious. With accounts like Mormon Unvailed we have to give them priority since they are early recollections (the time between the events and the recounting is short), and when we have newspaper accounts like what Erin finds, Mike Marquardt finds or Connell finds, they get higher priority since they are contemporary.

Connell wrote back to me and said that usually this would be correct, but he also pointed out that many late recollections can be very useful and then listed reasons why. If people what to know his reasons, let me know and I will list them.

One example of a late recollection that I found very trust worthy is Samuel Whitney's (Newel's brother) account of Kirtland while Smith was in charge. Whitney's account has multiple details that are verified by contemporary accounts.

Again, I agree (and I would love to read the list of Connell's reasons).

How do you feel about the William Law interview (by Dr. Wyl)?
(Sorry, I know that's off topic and maybe it should be started in another thread).

Joe Geisner wrote:I know I have not added anything to the discussion of Green's account, but I think Dale gives a very useful analysis.

Oh Joe....you have never "not added anything" to any discussion on here....not that I've seen anyway! Thanks.

Re: How reliable are these recollections by Samuel D. Green?

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:10 pm
by _Mary
Joe, thankyou. Your insights and information are really helpful.

Connell wrote back to me and said that usually this would be correct, but he also pointed out that many late recollections can be very useful and then listed reasons why. If people what to know his reasons, let me know and I will list them.


I'd be very interested in his reasons.

I know that my mother, now 82, remembers things far better from her youth than she does with regard to what happened yesterday... A weird phenomenon! Not only does she remember events, particularly during the war, but she remembers the emotions that went with them... I would think that Joseph, and Jacob Cochran were memorable characters. There are some people who are so charismatic/different that they attract attention and an emotional response and as such I would think would be remembered.
(just my own garbled thoughts)