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Another thing I discussed with the bishop’s wife Saturday evening was the tension we have in Mormon doctrine between the idea of God micromanaging everything in our life for our good, no matter how stinking rotten it might be, and the idea of human agency.

I told her that you can believe in God’s micromanaging things, or you can believe in human agency to choose, but you can’t believe in both at the same time.

Either God is directing everything or people are making free choices independent of God’s will.

She said she was not aware of it being taught in the church that God was micromanaging everything in people’s lives.

I told her just to pay attention; that it was like my mentioning red Volkswagens, and after that she will start seeing red Volkswagens everywhere.

The next day at church, an older sister was called upon impromptu by the bishop to give testimony on account of she is moving to Utah, and sure enough, she got up and started on the well-worn meme of how God is directing her life in every respect.

When she was done, there was a rest hymn and, after conferring with my wife, I got up out of my seat, walked to the other side of the chapel where the bishop’s wife was standing and singing and asked her, “Did you just see a red Volkswagen?”

The bishop's wife laughed and laughed.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

To make this a bit clearer, the reason this subject came up is that the bishop's wife is a childhood abuse survivor who, like so many others, has struggled to understand how a loving God allows these things to happen to his children.

Is she really to believe it was for her own good, and so with all the rest?

consiglieri wrote:Another thing I discussed with the bishop’s wife Saturday evening was the tension we have in Mormon doctrine between the idea of God micromanaging everything in our life for our good, no matter how stinking rotten it might be, and the idea of human agency.

I told her that you can believe in God’s micromanaging things, or you can believe in human agency to choose, but you can’t believe in both at the same time.

Either God is directing everything or people are making free choices independent of God’s will.

She said she was not aware of it being taught in the church that God was micromanaging everything in people’s lives.

I told her just to pay attention; that it was like my mentioning red Volkswagens, and after that she will start seeing red Volkswagens everywhere.

The next day at church, an older sister was called upon impromptu by the bishop to give testimony on account of she is moving to Utah, and sure enough, she got up and started on the well-worn meme of how God is directing her life in every respect.

When she was done, there was a rest hymn and, after conferring with my wife, I got up out of my seat, walked to the other side of the chapel where the bishop’s wife was standing and singing and asked her, “Did you just see a red Volkswagen?”

The bishop's wife laughed and laughed.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

I can be directed in things and choose not to follow that direction. The "sister" who spoke you claim used the term "directed", she did not have to follow that direct rather she made the choice to follow the direction she likely was seeking.

I may have put it too mildly, using the word "directed."

What it amounts to is a heartfelt recounting of bad things happening in her life, coupled with her assurance that these bad things are given to her by God specifically for her betterment and "direction."

Hope that makes it more pellucid.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

consiglieri wrote:I may have put it too mildly, using the word "directed."

What it amounts to is a heartfelt recounting of bad things happening in her life, coupled with her assurance that these bad things are given to her by God specifically for her betterment and "direction."

Hope that makes it more pellucid.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

so what does that have to do with not being able to have agency and direction given by another?

consiglieri wrote:Hope that makes it more pellucid.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

It does. Makes it clearer as well. If I turn around suddenly to try and catch God flicking me in the back of the head with a giant finger, it will be my own paranoia and agency urging me on.

Are you flirting with the bishop's wife? Is she good looking? So you got up at of your seat and went to her, whispered something in her ear, causing her to laugh? And what was the bishop doing at this time? And then you came back to your seat? It must have been a strange site. What did you say to your wife: Do you mind if I say something to Blanche?

why me wrote:Are you flirting with the bishop's wife? Is she good looking? So you got up at of your seat and went to her, whispered something in her ear, causing her to laugh? And what was the bishop doing at this time? And then you came back to your seat? It must have been a strange site. What did you say to your wife: Do you mind if I say something to Blanche?

Not every man suffers from a flirtatious/predatory nature.
Perhaps you are projecting what your rationale for whispering in the ear of another man's wife might be...

consiglieri wrote:I told her that you can believe in God’s micromanaging things, or you can believe in human agency to choose, but you can’t believe in both at the same time.

Either God is directing everything or people are making free choices independent of God’s will.

She said she was not aware of it being taught in the church that God was micromanaging everything in people’s lives.

The lack of free will thing always bothered me.

In addition to that, the first vision story bothered me too, even before my teens. Something about swearing to an event so ludicrous which I wasn't sure took place. All the while knowing if I didn't swear to those things I'd be hurt by my loved ones.

Later on having your guts spread about the land if you leave the church. Not that those teachings somehow subconsciously affect the lives of everyone living in Mormonism.