DiscussMormonism.com

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhFfyQyOcaU&feature=plcp

I am about half through John's book and it is an excellent book. It captures the boss quite well and I am particularly captivated by his thesis that Young was willing to do anything to have no dissenters among his group because of what happened at Carthage.

I am curious what other think of this idea? Enjoy the video.

Will get to it later right now I am listening to John Larsen and George Miller.

Yes-- BY's oligarchy was a reaction to Joseph Smith having lost control of his followers. Particularly those who could not stomach polygamy.

What he does not cover is that BY's policy of feeding the Natives to keep them happy and recruit them into partnership was also something he learned from the Illinois difficulties.

They learned a lot-- but not enough to abandon the whole thing. The RLDS were wise enough to back up to Kirtland.

I listened to it. It pretty well reflects the book. BY became Joseph Smith, but also learned from his mistakes, which led to the rougher, tougher, more punitive BY. Joseph Smith rose to godhood through the hypnotic "Thus says the Lord--" BY refused to fall into that trap-- the point made at the end. BY, like John says, did everything he could to avoid the same end that Joseph Smith met.




(Of course, there are rumors that BY was poisoned by one of his wives----)

MCB wrote:
(Of course, there are rumors that BY was poisoned by one of his wives----)

I've read that, too. It sure would be interesting if someone followed up on that and did a lil diggin.

Doesn't know what it means to "almost speak in tongues?"

Check out Ann Taves, Fits, Trances & Visions: Experiencing Religion, Explaining Experience from Wesley to James.

http://www.amazon.com/Fits-Trances-Visi ... nd+visions

Speaking in tongues was part of a larger phenomenon which historians, the practitioners thereof, and the detractors therefrom in the late 1700s and 1800 referred to as enthusiastic religion.

Taves places enthusiastic religious behavior in the large category of dissassociative experience, a term most students of Mormon Studies would be familiar with.

Enthusiastic religious behavior could include: speaking in tongues, seeing visions, being in a trance and apparently involuntary physical movements.

When Joseph Smith arrived in Kirtland he prohibited the apparently involuntary physical movements, reserved the trance visions to himself and Sidney Ridgon but allowed the general membership to still go into the trance that created speaking in tongues.

Bushman writes that Mormons did not participate in enthusiastic religion because it stopped the involuntary movements even though it kept the visions and the speaking in tongues. But this is too biasedly narrow.

Turner is making the same mistake. Brother Green went into an obvious trance but did not start to speak in tongues.

Brother Green went into an obvious trance but did not start to speak in tongues.

Or slain in the spirit-- which appears in the Book of Mormon.

MCB wrote:

Brother Green went into an obvious trance but did not start to speak in tongues.

Or slain in the spirit-- which appears in the Book of Mormon.

Right.

A good Mormon friend of mine doesn't like the Mormon hymn from Kirtland, The Spirit of God Like a Fire is Burning. He says it sounds like "a holy roller hymn."

And I'm like, well duh.

just me wrote:I've read that, too. It sure would be interesting if someone followed up on that and did a lil diggin.

The poisoning story related to BY that I have always had more interest in is whether he had anything to do with Samuel Smith's mysterious death. As far as I know, there is no evidence other than vague accusations so I can't say that I believe he was involved, but it wouldn't shock me to find out that he was involved.

lulu wrote:A good Mormon friend of mine doesn't like the Mormon hymn from Kirtland, The Spirit of God Like a Fire is Burning. He says it sounds like "a holy roller hymn."

And I'm like, well duh.

Do you have a sense for when enthusiastic behavior died out? I get the sense from reading the JOD that 19th-century meetings in Utah were still a lot more, eh, "enthusiastic" than anything I've seen or heard in meetings recorded in the 20th century.

Cicero wrote:

just me wrote:I've read that, too. It sure would be interesting if someone followed up on that and did a lil diggin.

The poisoning story related to BY that I have always had more interest in is whether he had anything to do with Samuel Smith's mysterious death. As far as I know, there is no evidence other than vague accusations so I can't say that I believe he was involved, but it wouldn't shock me to find out that he was involved.

And there's also the poisoning story that ties it to some of John D. Lee's sons.

Maybe there were a lot of extra ingredients that big bowl of green corn and unripe peaches...