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I am interested in the thoughts of TBMs that are vivid Republicans, thinking we're each being tested.

Is it your position that each and every person in the City of Enoch, on his or her own, earned being 'taken up'/'translated'?

Or were the individuals included in an outstanding group effort?

Really, TBMs?

Your only allowing cricket chirping as the response to this one?

sock puppet wrote:Really, TBMs?

Your only allowing cricket chirping as the response to this one?

I'm not really a TBM, but hopefully, you're OK with my giving an answer.

Sock Puppet wrote:Is it your position that each and every person in the City of Enoch, on his or her own, earned being 'taken up'/'translated'?

Or were the individuals included in an outstanding group effort?

My understanding had always been that each individual in the City of Enoch was righteous enough to earn translation.

Enoch established a city called Zion (meaning "the pure in heart") which, as a result of Enoch's ministry, was comprised of righteous people. They lived the law of consecration, and as a result, "there was no poor among them (Moses 7:18). Enoch's people were completely united in living the celestial law of God in a telestial world. Enoch "saw the Lord, and he walked with him, and was before his face continually" (Doctrine and Covenants 107:49). The Lord even dwelt in the city of Enoch and taught Enoch's people there. The Book of Moses describes the manifestations of priesthood power in the city:
And so great was the faith of Enoch that he led the people of God, and their enemies came to battle against them; and he spake the word of the Lord, and the earth trembled, and the mountains fled, even according to his command; and the rivers of water were turned out of their course; and the roar of the lions was heard out of the wilderness; and all nations feared greatly, so powerful was the word of Enoch, and so great was the power of the language which God had given him.
The fear of the Lord was upon all nations, so great was the glory of the Lord, which was upon his people. And the Lord blessed the land, and they were blessed upon the mountains, and upon the high places, and did flourish.
And the Lord called his people Zion, because they were of one heart and one mind, and dwelt in righteousness; and there was no poor among them.
And Enoch continued his preaching in righteousness unto the people of God. And it came to pass in his days, that he built a city that was called the City of Holiness, even Zion (Moses 7:13, 17-19).
Enoch and the people of Zion became so righteous that the Lord translated them and took their city to heaven after 365 years (Moses 7:69). Enoch was 430 years old at that time. The city of Enoch thus attained a terrestrial glory.

Mormonwiki

liz3564 wrote:My understanding had always been that each individual in the City of Enoch was righteous enough to earn translation.

One followup, if you please.

I think we can probably safely assume that each individual did not achieve the requisite level of righteousness simultaneously.

So, may we assume that at some point an entire city's worth of people save one individual was ready and worthy to be translated, but their translation had to wait for that last person to come around and get with the program?

If so, is the individual/collective righteousness dichotomy really as hard and fast as the original OP implies?

sock puppet wrote:Really, TBMs?

Your only allowing cricket chirping as the response to this one?

I am not a TBM but I am a TB ya know what I mean.
As usual I will give more answer than you really want. So. Ahem. Back in the day, when a young 10 years old seer went out as a wild man (boy) and all the world came to wonder and mock him, he was able to bring together the saints eventually into one city. Now, these saints were not your run-0-the-mill LDS wankers who can only presume that they are. No. these were all sanctified individually. Obviously, Lamech the father of Noah was left behind as was Methuselah his grand father.

Moses 8
1 And all the days of Enoch were four hundred and thirty years.
2 And it came to pass that Methuselah, the son of Enoch, was not taken, that the covenants of the Lord might be fulfilled, which he made to Enoch; for he truly covenanted with Enoch that Noah should be of the fruit of his loins.

It took all of four hundred and twenty years to prepare his city. In fact stragglers who got the gospel right AFTER Zion had fled were caught up to join Enoch to the bosom of the Father. Obviously the Lord had a plan to remove all righteousness from off the earth. Now, I wonder IF the inhabitants of Zion were able after their translation to have children and multiply and become an exceeding great people. It has been somewhere near five thousand years. Or are they in a suspended state and might resume a more mortal condition after they return to this world? Don't know.

Moses 7
27 And Enoch beheld angels descending out of heaven, bearing testimony of the Father and Son; and the Holy Ghost fell on many, and they were caught up by the powers of heaven into Zion.

Your question of course begs what about the marginal saints, the innocent, or those who recently lost innocence. Were they all allowed to ascend together so to mock the concept as absurd by insisting it would be impossible that they could have all been worthy. A couple of hundred years in Zion is something we are clueless about. The Book of Mormon Zion was never translated, it fell. Could be fallout from Enoch's Zion unless after translation, there is no chance for it.

The little written about translation in the Book of Mormon suggests that it puts a body beyond the tests and vicissitudes of mortality and sanctity has a lock. The three Nephites were cast into the fire and into pits with wild beasts and nothing could harm them. Prisons could not hold them.

4 Nephi 1
29 And again, there was another church which denied the Christ; and they did persecute the true church of Christ, because of their humility and their belief in Christ; and they did despise them because of the many miracles which were wrought among them.
30 Therefore they did exercise power and authority over the disciples of Jesus who did tarry with them, and they did cast them into prison; but by the power of the word of God, which was in them, the prisons were rent in twain, and they went forth doing mighty miracles among them.
31 Nevertheless, and notwithstanding all these miracles, the people did harden their hearts, and did seek to kill them, even as the Jews at Jerusalem sought to kill Jesus, according to his word.
32 And they did cast them into furnaces of fire, and they came forth receiving no harm.
33 And they also cast them into dens of wild beasts, and they did play with the wild beasts even as a child with a lamb; and they did come forth from among them, receiving no harm.


In the same way Enoch was given to defend his city a few time and did so in rather spectacular fashion by faith and calling upon the powers of nature to dissuade threats. Even the giants refused any more to come against them.

Moses 7
13 And so great was the faith of Enoch that he led the people of God, and their enemies came to battle against them; and he spake the word of the Lord, and the earth trembled, and the mountains fled, even according to his command; and the drivers of water were turned out of their course; and the roar of the lions was heard out of the wilderness; and all nations feared greatly, so powerful was the word of Enoch, and so great was the power of the language which God had given him.
14 There also came up a land out of the depth of the sea, and so great was the fear of the enemies of the people of God, that they fled and stood afar off and went upon the land which came up out of the depth of the sea.
15 And the giants of the land, also, stood afar off; and there went forth a curse upon all people that fought against God;
16 And from that time forth there were wars and bloodshed among them; but the Lord came and dwelt with his people, and they dwelt in righteousness.
17 The fear of the Lord was upon all nations, so great was the glory of the Lord, which was upon his people. And the Lord blessed the land, and they were blessed upon the mountains, and upon the high places, and did flourish.
18 And the Lord called his people Zion, because they were of one heart and one mind, and dwelt in righteousness; and there was no poor among them.
19 And Enoch continued his preaching in righteousness unto the people of God. And it came to pass in his days, that he built a city that was called the City of Holiness, even Zion.

The Lord came and dwelt among them so it would seem that Enoch's city was at a translated state for a while before they were taken up. The city that they built could well have been prepared as a vehicle of their translation off the planet. Then I got to wonder IF children were born after the state of translation was put upon them. Once all the children who were present got old enough to join Zion possibly the problem of new arrivals was moot, and the potentiality of falling like the Nephites when a generation arose without faith was not a possibility with Enoch's Zion. And remains so to to this day as it is promised to return.

.
D&C 84: 100
100 The Lord hath redeemed his people;
And Satan is bound and time is no longer.
The Lord hath gathered all things in cone.
The Lord hath brought down Zion from above.
The Lord hath brought up Zion from beneath.


ANSWER MAN
ANSWER MAN
HE WILL ANSWER LIKE NO ONE CAN

ANSWER MAN
ANSWER MAN
EVEN WHEN NO ONE GIVES A DAMN

Sethbag wrote:

liz3564 wrote:My understanding had always been that each individual in the City of Enoch was righteous enough to earn translation.

One followup, if you please.

I think we can probably safely assume that each individual did not achieve the requisite level of righteousness simultaneously.

So, may we assume that at some point an entire city's worth of people save one individual was ready and worthy to be translated, but their translation had to wait for that last person to come around and get with the program?

If so, is the individual/collective righteousness dichotomy really as hard and fast as the original OP implies?

The City of Enoch is described as a type of Utopian society. It seems very likely to me that the people in the city probably did pretty closely reach the requisite level of righteousness simultaneously. They were all working together, cooperating toward a common goal. I would think that if you were in a situation where everyone was honestly approaching righteous goals with a sincere heart that they would probably all be pretty close to reaching that same goal at the same time.

I just can't really see a situation like you described where there was one "odd man out."

It's hard to imagine a utopian society where everyone is righteous. Obviously you have the rich business owners who are righteous. You also have the working class, who aren't quite as righteous as the business owners, but they are striving to get to that level. But what about the poor people who don't have the skills necessary to provide for themselves? These people would be forced to accept handouts, which makes them free loaders who aren't taking personal responsibility for their lives. Are we supposed to assume there were no elderly or disabled people in the city of Enoch?

[quote="Nightlion"]
Moses 7
13 And so great was the faith of Enoch that he led the people of God, and their enemies came to battle against them; and he spake the word of the Lord, and the earth trembled, and the mountains fled, even according to his command; and the drivers of water were turned out of their course; and the roar of the lions was heard out of the wilderness; and all nations feared greatly, so powerful was the word of Enoch, and so great was the power of the language which God had given him.
14 There also came up a land out of the depth of the sea, and so great was the fear of the enemies of the people of God, that they fled and stood afar off and went upon the land which came up out of the depth of the sea.
15 And the giants of the land, also, stood afar off; and there went forth a curse upon all people that fought against God;
16 And from that time forth there were wars and bloodshed among them; but the Lord came and dwelt with his people, and they dwelt in righteousness.
17 The fear of the Lord was upon all nations, so great was the glory of the Lord, which was upon his people. And the Lord blessed the land, and they were blessed upon the mountains, and upon the high places, and did flourish.
18 And the Lord called his people Zion, because they were of one heart and one mind, and dwelt in righteousness; and there was no poor among them.
19 And Enoch continued his preaching in righteousness unto the people of God. And it came to pass in his days, that he built a city that was called the City of Holiness, even Zion.

Interestingly further here: It was speculated nearly officially that the City of Zion was taken up from where today we see the Gulf of Mexico. Yet, here we see that Zion was up in the mountains. SOOOOO I suggest the Great Basin a more likely place where they left from. Yeah, right here where we got mountains-a-plenty to hurl about. I know a couple of guys who IF they ever got wind of this notion would be telling us precisely where. He already has Noah living in Sanpete County.

I better read through his PDF and see if he did not already come to this conclusion. Might be talking out of my hat!

Shall we scour the hills until we see a mountain showing signs of having been moved? Obviously, the Garden of Eden was also at a height to allow four major rivers to flow out. A theory begins to coalesce that will not forbid The Apocalrock..

sock puppet wrote:I am interested in the thoughts of TBMs that are vivid Republicans, thinking we're each being tested.

Is it your position that each and every person in the City of Enoch, on his or her own, earned being 'taken up'/'translated'?

Or were the individuals included in an outstanding group effort?

I don't know if I still qualify as a TBM, but I think one of the most interesting aspects of Mormonism is its focus on salvation not as an individual, but as a group.

We can start with the idea that no man or woman standing alone can be exalted.

Then there is the idea that wayward children may be saved through the power of their parents' sealing.

Then there is the idea of a city of Zion, where all are saved together. This would include, I think, even the odd-man out.

(Here I think of the response Brigham Young gave to somebody who came to him reporting to have seen Indian Agent Jacob Hamblin in his cups with the Native Americans: "Well, then you saw a good man drunk!")

On an even larger scope, Joseph Smith taught that one of the primary purposes of the sealing ordinance was to seal everybody from Adam all the way down to the latest generation, with the implication that everybody sealed in this manner will be saved.

Which seems to me to give added weight to God's declaration that his work and his glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

While contemporary Mormonism seems to have bought into the evangelical concept of salvation being an individual affair, I think the earliest doctrines of the LDS Church lean in the opposite direction.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri