Page 1 of 9

The Book of Mormon *shouldn't* be proven factual

Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:40 pm
by _zeezrom
You know the story of Jesus being killed? He could have saved himself but he chose not to. He could have shown the whole world his majesty and might. He could have proven to the world that God is real. He didn't. It just wasn't supposed to be that way.

Similarly, God could have provided the world with clear, historical evidence for the Book of Mormon. He didn't and He *shouldn't*.

This is the world view of a TBM. We are not supposed to find evidence of the stories in the Book. To search for the evidence would be akin to asking Jesus to save himself from death at Golgotha.

Re: The Book of Mormon *shouldn't* be proven factual

Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:51 pm
by _Drifting
Hmmm...is 'failure to being proven factual' the same as 'being proven to be false'?

Re: The Book of Mormon *shouldn't* be proven factual

Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:41 pm
by _dblagent007
This Mr. Deity video shows the absurdity of the "believe without evidence" mentality of so many.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLphfq_g ... e=g-user-u

Re: The Book of Mormon *shouldn't* be proven factual

Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:58 pm
by _lulu
zeezrom wrote:You know the story of Jesus being killed? He could have saved himself but he chose not to. He could have shown the whole world his majesty and might. He could have proven to the world that God is real. He didn't. It just wasn't supposed to be that way.

Similarly, God could have provided the world with clear, historical evidence for the Book of Mormon. He didn't and He *shouldn't*.

This is the world view of a TBM. We are not supposed to find evidence of the stories in the Book. To search for the evidence would be akin to asking Jesus to save himself from death at Golgotha.

But are most apologists putting it that way? The challenge for Mormonism is to credibly weld the world of logical positism with their particular brand of mystical symbolism for the masses.

Maybe Mormonism will produce someone of Joseph Smith's religious creativity who can do this. This farm boy was able to bridge the world of dying folk practices with that of rivialist evangelicalism during a major up tick in American industrialization and urbanization. Augustine was able to begin a bridge between the world view of a nacient Jewish cult with that of a Greco Roman empire.

Whether this is within the abilities of the lawyers and MBA's of the heirarchy and the CES academics, the most viable of whom tend toward personal attacks and tracking their enemies' internet activities, remains an open question.

For now, it doesn't look good. They appear to be losing to Pentecostalism.

But the future is an open mystery.

Re: The Book of Mormon *shouldn't* be proven factual

Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:21 pm
by _Nightlion
zeezrom wrote:You know the story of Jesus being killed? He could have saved himself but he chose not to. He could have shown the whole world his majesty and might. He could have proven to the world that God is real. He didn't. It just wasn't supposed to be that way.

Similarly, God could have provided the world with clear, historical evidence for the Book of Mormon. He didn't and He *shouldn't*.

This is the world view of a TBM. We are not supposed to find evidence of the stories in the Book. To search for the evidence would be akin to asking Jesus to save himself from death at Golgotha.

Times and seasons friend. Go tell it on The Apocalrock. For proof it is. Up close and personal, in your face proof, before judgment is drawn to the line and righteousness to the plummet.

Re: The Book of Mormon *shouldn't* be proven factual

Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:53 pm
by _brade
zeezrom wrote:You know the story of Jesus being killed? He could have saved himself but he chose not to. He could have shown the whole world his majesty and might. He could have proven to the world that God is real. He didn't. It just wasn't supposed to be that way.

Similarly, God could have provided the world with clear, historical evidence for the Book of Mormon. He didn't and He *shouldn't*.

This is the world view of a TBM. We are not supposed to find evidence of the stories in the Book. To search for the evidence would be akin to asking Jesus to save himself from death at Golgotha.


I'm assuming you're trying to suggest something about apologetics. Is that right? If so, then I think the appropriate response, and it's one I think most apologists would agree with, is that their project is not one of offering compelling non-spiritual evidence that Mormonism's unique claims are true. Rather, their project is to demonstrate that Mormonism's unique claims are plausible or even likely given the best available evidence across relevant fields of serious inquiry.

One of my main criticisms of Mormon apologetics is that on the ground the project of demonstrating plausibility or likelihood is actually cashed out in terms of demonstrating something much closer to mere possibility. There is, I think, a sort of hand waving going on where the product offered (i.e. plausibility or likelihood) is not delivered. In its place a different product is delivered (i.e. possibility), which, if you pile on enough dressing, can be made to look like the offered product.

It's just trivial and should be obvious that it's possible that the Book of Mormon is an authentic and mostly accurate record of events that really happened in a place and time on this earth and people who actually lived in a place and time on this earth. All you really need to get somebody to accept that claim is give them a proper understanding of what it is for something to be possible. Most reasonable people have this already, and so getting people to accept that claim shouldn't be any harder than uttering it. You don't have to say anything about the actual history, or best available history to our present understanding, of the world on the American continent or anywhere else. You would need to take such history into account to argue successfully that it is plausible.

The hand waving is this. Apologists say a lot about history or the best available history to our present understanding. This sets readers up to expect a plausibility/likelihood conclusion. What ultimately gets delivered is closer to a mere possibility conclusion, which readers mistakenly interpret as plausibility/likelihood because they've been made to labor under a lot of fancy research.

Re: The Book of Mormon *shouldn't* be proven factual

Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:19 pm
by _DarkHelmet
The people who think like this fail to understand that you can use that logic to justify anything. I can prove to you that my ponzi scheme is a good investment, just like Jesus could have saved himself and proven that god exists, but he didn't.

Re: The Book of Mormon *shouldn't* be proven factual

Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:21 pm
by _brade
DarkHelmet wrote:The people who think like this fail to understand that you can use that logic to justify anything. I can prove to you that my ponzi scheme is a good investment, just like Jesus could have saved himself and proven that god exists, but he didn't.


I don't know what "that logic" refers to exactly, but as far as plain old logic goes, you cannot use it to justify or prove just anything. You can use logic to create valid arguments about anything:

(P1) If Jesus is a dodo bird, then Mary had an iPhone.
(P2) Jesus is a dodo bird.
(C1) Therefore, Mary had an iPhone.

The arguments is valid in the sense that if the premises were true, the conclusion would follow (i.e. be justified, be proved). But the premises are not true. Logic doesn't do much, if anything, to inform us about the premises and assumptions we make (except to tells us how they are consistent or inconsistent with other premises and assumptions).

You can prove, to a certain satisfaction, that your investment opportunity is sound by making a valid argument using true, or very likely to be true, premises. You can't do it by just tossing together any claims you like in a way that follows the rules of reasoning and logic. You could very easily make a valid argument in that way, but you will not have proven your conclusion by merely doing so.

Re: The Book of Mormon *shouldn't* be proven factual

Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:43 pm
by _son of Ishmael
zeezrom wrote:You know the story of Jesus being killed? He could have saved himself but he chose not to. He could have shown the whole world his majesty and might. He could have proven to the world that God is real. He didn't. It just wasn't supposed to be that way.

Similarly, God could have provided the world with clear, historical evidence for the Book of Mormon. He didn't and He *shouldn't*.

This is the world view of a TBM. We are not supposed to find evidence of the stories in the Book. To search for the evidence would be akin to asking Jesus to save himself from death at Golgotha.



I think maybe this could fly except for that fact that the evidence that does exist all points to the Book of Mormon not being true. As far as I know there is no evidence that points that Jesus never lived or was crucified. I think even most of the four horsemen concede that there was a historic Jesus if only because the Bible does a Kabuki dance to try and show that the "Jesus of Nazareth" was actually born in Bethlehem etc. The Jesus of the Bible is sort of evidence neutral. The evidence about the Book of Mormon mostly (all?) stacks up on the side that says it is not historically true.

Re: The Book of Mormon *shouldn't* be proven factual

Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:57 pm
by _DarkHelmet
brade wrote:
DarkHelmet wrote:The people who think like this fail to understand that you can use that logic to justify anything. I can prove to you that my ponzi scheme is a good investment, just like Jesus could have saved himself and proven that god exists, but he didn't.


I don't know what "that logic" refers to exactly, but as far as plain old logic goes, you cannot use it to justify or prove just anything. You can use logic to create valid arguments about anything:

(P1) If Jesus is a dodo bird, then Mary had an iPhone.
(P2) Jesus is a dodo bird.
(C1) Therefore, Mary had an iPhone.

The arguments is valid in the sense that if the premises were true, the conclusion would follow (i.e. be justified, be proved). But the premises are not true. Logic doesn't do much, if anything, to inform us about the premises and assumptions we make (except to tells us how they are consistent or inconsistent with other premises and assumptions).

You can prove, to a certain satisfaction, that your investment opportunity is sound by making a valid argument using true, or very likely to be true, premises. You can't do it by just tossing together any claims you like in a way that follows the rules of reasoning and logic. You could very easily make a valid argument in that way, but you will not have proven your conclusion by merely doing so.


True, but even if the premise in the OP were true it doesn't prove the conclusion. The truthfulness of the Book of Mormon has nothing to do with Jesus dying on the cross. Your logic string of Jesus being a dodo works. The logic string in the OP falls apart as quickly as my investment opportunity.