Dialogue between TBMs and Critics
Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:48 pm
Sethbag here gives a little 'sympathy for the devil', i.e., pleads Scott Gordon's case for ratting out David Twede, new editor of MormonThink:
Sethbag makes the point (whether he correctly appreciated what Kishkumen was saying or not) that from the TBM's perspective, Gordon's LDS believing perspective, Gordon did the 'correct' thing. After all, as Sethbag points out, if you believe LDS dogma, then there were 'souls ... on the line.' The TBM not only sympathizes as does Sethbag, but the TBM applauds Gordon's courage to do the 'right thing.'
Turning the tables. I as a disbeliever think that the LDS dogma to be false and that it is used to deceive people, particularly young, impressionable people, into making decisions and doing things that they would not if they weren't being fed these lies. When I post and give warning of what I believe to be Mormonism's lies, I too am doing so out of noble concern for others, to save people from the LDS dogma and the wasting of time and aspects of their lives on lies.
So, to the critic, Gordon is a despicable snitch though his actions are consistent with a concern for the 'souls' of others. Just as to the TBM, I am a despicable anti-Mormon though my actions are consistent with a concern for others too.
I think Sethbag served up an important reminder on MDB, where the majority of posters are NOMs and critics, that from Gordon's perspective, his 'snitching' could have been done out of genuine concern for others, for the souls of those who might visit MormonThink and stop their LDS activity by reason of it.
But here's one critical difference for me. Gordon can only succeed in his charitable act to save other souls if the outcome of Twede's disciplinary action is to cause him to disengage from MormonThink activity, to stop historical facts from being disclosed to other LDS. That is only necessary because the LDS Church itself continues to perpetuate its lies, its whitewashed, correlated narrative of historical facts of JSJr and early Mormonism. If the LDS Church were not so bent on providing only a slanted view, with gaping holes of historical accuracy, Twede--if his motive is to lure LDS out of the Church--would be deprived of the most effective tool to do so.
By and large from my experience, critics are not troubled by those that know the facts and yet remain active TBMs (though such is an enigma), but are motivated to try to disseminate the historical information missing from the official LDS narratives, so that those facing LDS decisions may do so fully informed.
It seems to me that while within the LDS theological construct, Gordon may have had pure, genuine motivations, concerned for the 'souls' of other LDS, the problem stems from the fact that the LDS Church has been in the business for well over 150 years of providing a slanted view, and not wanting members, investigators and observers to hear all the facts. And there seems to be no hint that the LDS Church is wavering from continuing on the path of this institutional deception.
Sethbag wrote:If Brother Gordon did exactly as you say, what is the problem? From his point of view, Brother Twede is engaged in endangering peoples' eternal salvation. From Gordon's perspective, if he doesn't act to defend the flock against this wolf, there are people who literally might not make it to the Celestial Kingdom who otherwise would. And to Gordon, he is his brother's keeper.Kishkumen wrote:Uh, the crucial difference here is that Gordon allegedly forwarded materials regarding Twede to Salt Lake City with the specific purpose of initiating church disciplinary action against him. I don't recall that any of us have played police detective and snitch in that way. So, fine. But then to deny it? OK, we understand that the apologists want to police the internet on behalf of the LDS Church, but they should at least own up to their online Danitism when they are put on the record admitting to it.
If you believed this, and you were in Gordon's shoes, don't you think you might look at the matter a little differently? We see it one way, but to Gordon, souls are on the line.
Sethbag makes the point (whether he correctly appreciated what Kishkumen was saying or not) that from the TBM's perspective, Gordon's LDS believing perspective, Gordon did the 'correct' thing. After all, as Sethbag points out, if you believe LDS dogma, then there were 'souls ... on the line.' The TBM not only sympathizes as does Sethbag, but the TBM applauds Gordon's courage to do the 'right thing.'
Turning the tables. I as a disbeliever think that the LDS dogma to be false and that it is used to deceive people, particularly young, impressionable people, into making decisions and doing things that they would not if they weren't being fed these lies. When I post and give warning of what I believe to be Mormonism's lies, I too am doing so out of noble concern for others, to save people from the LDS dogma and the wasting of time and aspects of their lives on lies.
So, to the critic, Gordon is a despicable snitch though his actions are consistent with a concern for the 'souls' of others. Just as to the TBM, I am a despicable anti-Mormon though my actions are consistent with a concern for others too.
I think Sethbag served up an important reminder on MDB, where the majority of posters are NOMs and critics, that from Gordon's perspective, his 'snitching' could have been done out of genuine concern for others, for the souls of those who might visit MormonThink and stop their LDS activity by reason of it.
But here's one critical difference for me. Gordon can only succeed in his charitable act to save other souls if the outcome of Twede's disciplinary action is to cause him to disengage from MormonThink activity, to stop historical facts from being disclosed to other LDS. That is only necessary because the LDS Church itself continues to perpetuate its lies, its whitewashed, correlated narrative of historical facts of JSJr and early Mormonism. If the LDS Church were not so bent on providing only a slanted view, with gaping holes of historical accuracy, Twede--if his motive is to lure LDS out of the Church--would be deprived of the most effective tool to do so.
By and large from my experience, critics are not troubled by those that know the facts and yet remain active TBMs (though such is an enigma), but are motivated to try to disseminate the historical information missing from the official LDS narratives, so that those facing LDS decisions may do so fully informed.
It seems to me that while within the LDS theological construct, Gordon may have had pure, genuine motivations, concerned for the 'souls' of other LDS, the problem stems from the fact that the LDS Church has been in the business for well over 150 years of providing a slanted view, and not wanting members, investigators and observers to hear all the facts. And there seems to be no hint that the LDS Church is wavering from continuing on the path of this institutional deception.