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And blessed are the Gentiles, because of their belief in me, . . . in the latter day shall the truth come unto the Gentiles, that the fulness of these things shall be made known unto them.
* * *
And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: "At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth . . . ; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, Behold," saith the Father, "I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them."

--3 Nephi 16:6-7, 10-16 (Jesus speaking)

Yep, and they are right in the midst of it too. The gifts of the spirit are not found often in the Mormon Churches. They don't seek God or speak with him face-to-face and most have turned away - doing what they "feel" is best instead.

Yes.

The end.

Tobin wrote:Yep, and they are right in the midst of it too. The gifts of the spirit are not found often in the Mormon Churches. They don't seek God or speak with him face-to-face and most have turned away - doing what they "feel" is best instead.

What did God say about this when you met Him?

consiglieri wrote:And blessed are the Gentiles, because of their belief in me, . . . in the latter day shall the truth come unto the Gentiles, that the fulness of these things shall be made known unto them.
* * *
And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: "At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth . . . ; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, Behold," saith the Father, "I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them."

--3 Nephi 16:6-7, 10-16 (Jesus speaking)

One could say the church has been in apostasy, or at least a partial apostasy, since 1832 when they rejected the law of consecration, i.e., the United Order. Hugh Nibley kind of hints at this in his essay "We Will Still Weep For Zion", and says this rejection accounts for the baffling and weird contradictions that exist in our LDS culture today. You either live the law of consecration in its entirety, or you don't; and if you don't, you are in the power of Satan--or so we are taught. "Zion cannot be built up unless it is by the laws of the celestial kingdom." (Not a verbatim quote...I can't remember exact scripture.) So what is it that we are building today?

The church in every age of the world has always drifted into apostasy. Why should the church today be any different? However, having said that, I also think there are good reasons for the public relations obsessed (at least it seems so to me), corporate, correlated church of today. We are in a period of growth, not only in our numbers, but a period when the wheat is supposed to grow with the tares until the final harvest. How long this will last, how long until there is the "separation among the people spoken of in the D&C, I guess no one knows.

kjones wrote:

consiglieri wrote:And blessed are the Gentiles, because of their belief in me, . . . in the latter day shall the truth come unto the Gentiles, that the fulness of these things shall be made known unto them.
* * *
And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: "At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth . . . ; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, Behold," saith the Father, "I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them."

--3 Nephi 16:6-7, 10-16 (Jesus speaking)

One could say the church has been in apostasy, or at least a partial apostasy, since 1832 when they rejected the law of consecration, i.e., the United Order. Hugh Nibley kind of hints at this in his essay "We Will Still Weep For Zion", and says this rejection accounts for the baffling and weird contradictions that exist in our LDS culture today. You either live the law of consecration in its entirety, or you don't; and if you don't, you are in the power of Satan--or so we are taught. "Zion cannot be built up unless it is by the laws of the celestial kingdom." (Not a verbatim quote...I can't remember exact scripture.) So what is it that we are building today?

The church in every age of the world has always drifted into apostasy. Why should the church today be any different? However, having said that, I also think there are good reasons for the public relations obsessed (at least it seems so to me), corporate, correlated church of today. We are in a period of growth, not only in our numbers, but a period when the wheat is supposed to grow with the tares until the final harvest. How long this will last, how long until there is the "separation among the people spoken of in the D&C, I guess no one knows.

You have hit on the source for my poster name, congratulations you win...well..nothing actually...

I have long believed that since the day Joseph was murdered the Mormon Church has been rudderless, 'drifting' if you will.

It has drifted into various factions, it has drifted in and out of doctrines and policies, it has drifted away from the roots and foundation of Mormonism to the point it is at today where it is largely indistinguishable from mainstream Protestantism. The only thing that sets it apart is its Temple practices and even those have drifted/are drifting into something that is socially acceptable.

The church has no recognisable and visible development plan, no strategy, no clear direction beyond "cheer up and work harder".

Interesting comments, Drifting. For my part, I do not necessarily see the drifting of the church as as a bad thing, rather it is just the natural order of things. Our leaders do the best they can, and I do believe they are inspired and called of God, even inspired, and that they receive revelation--although not in the way Joseph Smith did. I don't think we should expect that of them. A Joseph Smith comes along maybe once every 2000 years or so, turns things upside down, resets and re-orders thing, and then leaves. Between that moment (i.e., when he leaves) and the future point when someone like him comes again or Christ returns, the church is going to drift.

But, for my part at least, I don't think I can use this as an excuse to stay away. I will continue to pay tithing, attend church more or less regularly (this is especially challenging for me), do genealogy (just starting to do this) and temple work...and do all I can to avoid or at best ignore church culture, and especially anything touched by the hated correlation committee. In fact, when I retire, I may go so far as to move out of the country in an effort to put still more distance between myself and the correlated church, move to a place like Mexico or Belize where I can serve and be of use in a ward or branch outside the shadow of correlation, or the Utah church, where the painful contradictions Nibley spoke of are most evident.

The church has drifted and will continue to drift. In the long run it matters little. Christ will continue to delay his return (as in, it isn't ever going to happen) and in 1000 years the church will either have died or will exist in some form that little resembles today's...... I predict an mostly underground, fundamentalist, polygamist form in a 95% atheists society...... Or a Mormon/Muslim fusion in a Muslim derived society.

kjones wrote:Interesting comments, Drifting. For my part, I do not necessarily see the drifting of the church as as a bad thing, rather it is just the natural order of things. Our leaders do the best they can, and I do believe they are inspired and called of God, even inspired, and that they receive revelation--although not in the way Joseph Smith did. I don't think we should expect that of them. A Joseph Smith comes along maybe once every 2000 years or so, turns things upside down, resets and re-orders thing, and then leaves. Between that moment (i.e., when he leaves) and the future point when someone like him comes again or Christ returns, the church is going to drift.

But, for my part at least, I don't think I can use this as an excuse to stay away. I will continue to pay tithing, attend church more or less regularly (this is especially challenging for me), do genealogy (just starting to do this) and temple work...and do all I can to avoid or at best ignore church culture, and especially anything touched by the hated correlation committee. In fact, when I retire, I may go so far as to move out of the country in an effort to put still more distance between myself and the correlated church, move to a place like Mexico or Belize where I can serve and be of use in a ward or branch outside the shadow of correlation, or the Utah church, where the painful contradictions Nibley spoke of are most evident.

Are the Church Leaders doing 'the best they can'?
Can you immediately think of three ways in which the Church could be led in a more Christlike fashion?

Drifting wrote:

kjones wrote:Interesting comments, Drifting. For my part, I do not necessarily see the drifting of the church as as a bad thing, rather it is just the natural order of things. Our leaders do the best they can, and I do believe they are inspired and called of God, even inspired, and that they receive revelation--although not in the way Joseph Smith did. I don't think we should expect that of them. A Joseph Smith comes along maybe once every 2000 years or so, turns things upside down, resets and re-orders thing, and then leaves. Between that moment (i.e., when he leaves) and the future point when someone like him comes again or Christ returns, the church is going to drift.

But, for my part at least, I don't think I can use this as an excuse to stay away. I will continue to pay tithing, attend church more or less regularly (this is especially challenging for me), do genealogy (just starting to do this) and temple work...and do all I can to avoid or at best ignore church culture, and especially anything touched by the hated correlation committee. In fact, when I retire, I may go so far as to move out of the country in an effort to put still more distance between myself and the correlated church, move to a place like Mexico or Belize where I can serve and be of use in a ward or branch outside the shadow of correlation, or the Utah church, where the painful contradictions Nibley spoke of are most evident.

Are the Church Leaders doing 'the best they can'?
Can you immediately think of three ways in which the Church could be led in a more Christlike fashion?

Church leaders today have to negotiate a middle-road, and that is never easy. It's kind of like straddling a fence. They have to keep the church corporation solvent, and this involves doing things that perhaps do not appear Christlike...or even are frankly un-Christlike, like City Creek. Like I said, I think it is a very tough time.