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"Mormon Interpreter" Resurrects Tvedtnes

Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:34 pm
by _Doctor Scratch
A new article has appeared on Mormon Interpreter: it's an article on discrepancies in the First Vision written by the googly-eyed Mopologist, John Tvedtnes. I have to admit, I was shocked to see that Tvedtnes is alive and kicking; it had seemed for a time that they had put him out to pasture as an "Associate" (whatever that means) for SHIELDS, and yet here he is, just in time for (though a tad late) for Halloween, shocked back into Mopologetic life, rather like Frankenstein.

http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/varian ... stle-paul/

And what to make of his article? He starts off without seeming to realize that most articles begin with an actual introduction. Instead, he sounds as if he's picking up some conversation that he began two or three years ago:

Some critics have suggested that Joseph Smith contradicted himself in different accounts of his first vision. In one, for example, he says that the Lord told him that all the churches were wrong, while in another he says that he had already come to this conclusion before going out in the woods to pray. I see no real contradiction between Joseph Smith believing, when he went to pray, that he should join none of the churches, and the Lord confirming that thought by revelation. After all, he went into the woods to get an answer.


Well, okay: that's all fine and dandy. What's bizarre about the article is two-fold: for one thing, the things has hardly been "written" at all. Instead, the vast bulk of the text is given over to side-by-side comparisons of the "First vision" of the Apostle Paul. And that brings me to the second odd element: Tvedtnes is defending Joseph Smith by vigorously attack Paul the Apostle.

Boy, this really takes me back, to really, really Old-School Mopologetics that went about defending the Church by attacking more traditional elements of Christianity. It's the kind of tactic that says, "See? Look how messed-up and unreliable the Bible is! If you accept the Bible, then you have to accept the Book of Mormon, too!" Indeed, Tvedtnes seems to be living in the Dark Ages, where the top Mopologists are still duking it out with Evangelical ministers, rather than secular critics.

Besides, I rather suspect (and again I'll happily defer to people who are better trained in scriptural exegesis) that one can account for the discrepancies in the Paul texts at least in part due to the work of scribes. In other words, I rather think that Tvedtnes's comparison doesn't really hold up.

In any case, the MI keeps huffing along....

Re: "Mormon Interpreter" Resurrects Tvedtnes

Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:40 pm
by _The Erotic Apologist
What's the size of a typical print run for an issue of Mormon Interpreter?

Re: "Mormon Interpreter" Resurrects Tvedtnes

Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:44 pm
by _sock puppet
Doctor Scratch wrote:A new article has appeared on Mormon Interpreter: it's an article on discrepancies in the First Vision written by the googly-eyed Mopologist, John Tvedtnes. I have to admit, I was shocked to see that Tvedtnes is alive and kicking; it had seemed for a time that they had put him out to pasture as an "Associate" (whatever that means) for SHIELDS, and yet here he is, just in time for (though a tad late) for Halloween, shocked back into Mopologetic life, rather like Frankenstein.

http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/varian ... stle-paul/

And what to make of his article? He starts off without seeming to realize that most articles begin with an actual introduction. Instead, he sounds as if he's picking up some conversation that he began two or three years ago:

Some critics have suggested that Joseph Smith contradicted himself in different accounts of his first vision. In one, for example, he says that the Lord told him that all the churches were wrong, while in another he says that he had already come to this conclusion before going out in the woods to pray. I see no real contradiction between Joseph Smith believing, when he went to pray, that he should join none of the churches, and the Lord confirming that thought by revelation. After all, he went into the woods to get an answer.


Well, okay: that's all fine and dandy. What's bizarre about the article is two-fold: for one thing, the things has hardly been "written" at all. Instead, the vast bulk of the text is given over to side-by-side comparisons of the "First vision" of the Apostle Paul. And that brings me to the second odd element: Tvedtnes is defending Joseph Smith by vigorously attack Paul the Apostle.

Boy, this really takes me back, to really, really Old-School Mopologetics that went about defending the Church by attacking more traditional elements of Christianity. It's the kind of tactic that says, "See? Look how messed-up and unreliable the Bible is! If you accept the Bible, then you have to accept the Book of Mormon, too!" Indeed, Tvedtnes seems to be living in the Dark Ages, where the top Mopologists are still duking it out with Evangelical ministers, rather than secular critics.

Besides, I rather suspect (and again I'll happily defer to people who are better trained in scriptural exegesis) that one can account for the discrepancies in the Paul texts at least in part due to the work of scribes. In other words, I rather think that Tvedtnes's comparison doesn't really hold up.

In any case, the MI keeps huffing along....

This apostle tu quoque--Paul too has that problem that afflicts JSJr and his morphing account of the first vision--is petty and diversionary to the real issue: why are there those differences in accounts of JSJr's FV?

Do the differences in Paul's versions of his conversion track with and are convenient and necessary to the evolving theology in the way JSJr's FV accounts were?

Re: "Mormon Interpreter" Resurrects Tvedtnes

Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 11:57 pm
by _Philo Sofee
Actually the real question is why is the First Vision accepted at all? There were no witnesses. There is fundamentally no physical evidence at all. The description of beings floating in the air while talking is bizarre according to normal standards of reality based upon gravitational influences on earth, etc. This is simply accepting one man's opinion of what he saw. It certainly isn't unique in Joseph Smith's day. Dan Vogel demonstrated others had "first visions" of God and Jesus as well.

Re: "Mormon Interpreter" Resurrects Tvedtnes

Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 12:25 am
by _Doctor Scratch
The biggest mystery for me in all of this is, Why is Tvedtnes only just now oozing out of the woodwork? He had essentially been absent from the Mopologetics scene for at least a few years. I had been under the impression that he had bee "let go" from the Maxwell Institute, and yet now here he is, wielding his old, familiar hatchet once again. So, was he forced out of the real MI for political reasons?

Re: "Mormon Interpreter" Resurrects Tvedtnes

Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 12:32 am
by _sock puppet
Doctor Scratch wrote:The biggest mystery for me in all of this is, Why is Tvedtnes only just now oozing out of the woodwork? He had essentially been absent from the Mopologetics scene for at least a few years. I had been under the impression that he had bee "let go" from the Maxwell Institute, and yet now here he is, wielding his old, familiar hatchet once again. So, was he forced out of the real MI for political reasons?

Maybe Interpreters could better be titled Sgt Dan's Lonely Apologists Club.

Re: "Mormon Interpreter" Resurrects Tvedtnes

Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 12:38 am
by _lulu
Doctor Scratch wrote:The biggest mystery for me in all of this is, Why is Tvedtnes only just now oozing out of the woodwork?


The new internet MI needs content.

Re: "Mormon Interpreter" Resurrects Tvedtnes

Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 2:16 am
by _Elphaba
I was both bored and intrigued, so I did a little cyberfootwork, and discovered a SHIELDS reference that indicates Meridian Magazine printed an article by Tvedtnes with the exact same title, "Variants in the Stories of the First Vision of Joseph Smith and the Apostle Paul" in July of 2007, but when I clicked on the link I got a 404 error. I assume this is because Meridian was not online in 2007, but I am not sure. The SHIELDS link is below.

I also found a 1999 reference to an unpublished Tvedtnes paper with the same title in Kevin C. Hill's "Breaking Down Barriers or Building Them Up?":
88: For an illustration of the variant accounts of Paul’s vision and the contradictions found in them see John Tvedtness, Variants in the Stories of the First Vision of Joseph Smith and the Apostle Paul, Unpublished Paper. Interested parties may contact John Tvedtness at FARMS (John_Tvedtnes@BYU.edu) for a copy of the paper. The paper illustrates the dual standard of employing the technique the critics of Joseph’s accounts use while ignoring the same issues regarding Paul’s accounts. Indeed, in a private email John Tvedtness wrote to a critic of the Church about this paper saying: “I have written on the first visions of Joseph Smith and Paul. Can you deal honestly with this issue? We shall see. And yes, I am happy to share it with all the people on your e-mail list. Maybe some of them will see the absurdity of the criticisms leveled against Joseph Smith on this issue, or at least acknowledge that the same "problems" exist in Paul's account.” Used by permission.


I found other items by Tvedtnes where he makes the same FV/Paul's vision argument, but didn't follow up on them because I think the hits above are sufficient to show the Interpreter not only resurrected Tvedtnes, but his paper as well.

SHIELDS reference: http://www.shields-research.org/Authors ... iblio.html
Hill reference (Reference #88): http://www.mormonfortress.com/break.html

Re: "Mormon Interpreter" Resurrects Tvedtnes

Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 2:23 am
by _lulu
Recycling is green.

Elphaba wrote:I was both bored and intrigued, so I did a little cyberfootwork, and discovered a SHIELDS reference that indicates Meridian Magazine printed an article by Tvedtnes with the exact same title, "Variants in the Stories of the First Vision of Joseph Smith and the Apostle Paul" in July of 2007, but when I clicked on the link I got a 404 error. I assume this is because Meridian was not online in 2007, but I am not sure. The SHIELDS link is below.

I also found a 1999 reference to an unpublished Tvedtnes paper with the same title in Kevin C. Hill's "Breaking Down Barriers or Building Them Up?":
88: For an illustration of the variant accounts of Paul’s vision and the contradictions found in them see John Tvedtness, Variants in the Stories of the First Vision of Joseph Smith and the Apostle Paul, Unpublished Paper. Interested parties may contact John Tvedtness at FARMS (John_Tvedtnes@BYU.edu) for a copy of the paper. The paper illustrates the dual standard of employing the technique the critics of Joseph’s accounts use while ignoring the same issues regarding Paul’s accounts. Indeed, in a private email John Tvedtness wrote to a critic of the Church about this paper saying: “I have written on the first visions of Joseph Smith and Paul. Can you deal honestly with this issue? We shall see. And yes, I am happy to share it with all the people on your e-mail list. Maybe some of them will see the absurdity of the criticisms leveled against Joseph Smith on this issue, or at least acknowledge that the same "problems" exist in Paul's account.” Used by permission.


I found other items by Tvedtnes where he makes the same FV/Paul's vision argument, but didn't follow up on them because I think the hits above are sufficient to show the Interpreter not only resurrected Tvedtnes, but his paper as well.

SHIELDS reference: http://www.shields-research.org/Authors ... iblio.html
Hill reference (Reference #88): http://www.mormonfortress.com/break.html

Re: "Mormon Interpreter" Resurrects Tvedtnes

Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 2:34 am
by _Elphaba
lulu wrote:Recycling is green.
Leftist! :wink: