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Ok a few friends supplied me with some reading material … I have never read Rough Stone Rolling, so picked up from Amazon and started reading it today during my drip time.

It is interesting to see how Bushman flowers up the three versions of the First Vision accounts: 1832, 1835 and 1838 documentation of an the 1812 event.

However, I noted an interesting historical fact on page 41. Apparently there were somewhere between several and many people of the era that proclaimed visions. According to Bushman, this is why the various preachers wrote off Joseph Smith's vision so immediately, not for what he said he saw, but because of the common problem they had with other visionaries.

Note the similarity to the following quote from the book:

The Sayne Sentinel in 1823 reported Asa Wild's vision of Christ in Amsterdam, New York, telling him that all denominations were corrupt. At various other times and places, beginning early in the Protestant era, religious eccentrics had claimed visits from divinity. Norris Stearns published an account in 1815 of two beings who appeared to him: One was God, my Maker, almost in bodily shape like a man. His face was, as it were a flame of Fire, and his body, as it had been a Pillar and a Cloud … Below him stood Jesus Christ my Redeemer, in perfect shape like a man.

RockSlider wrote:Ok a few friends supplied me with some reading material … I have never read Rough Stone Rolling, so picked up from Amazon and started reading it today during my drip time.

It is interesting to see how Bushman flowers up the three versions of the First Vision accounts: 1832, 1835 and 1838 documentation of an the 1812 event.

However, I noted an interesting historical fact on page 41. Apparently there were somewhere between several and many people of the era that proclaimed visions. According to Bushman, this is why the various preachers wrote off Joseph Smith's vision so immediately, not for what he said he saw, but because of the common problem they had with other visionaries.

Note the similarity to the following quote from the book:

The Sayne Sentinel in 1823 reported Asa Wild's vision of Christ in Amsterdam, New York, telling him that all denominations were corrupt. At various other times and places, beginning early in the Protestant era, religious eccentrics had claimed visits from divinity. Norris Stearns published an account in 1815 of two beings who appeared to him: One was God, my Maker, almost in bodily shape like a man. His face was, as it were a flame of Fire, and his body, as it had been a Pillar and a Cloud … Below him stood Jesus Christ my Redeemer, in perfect shape like a man.

JSJr was such an original--original copy cat, that is. Sort of like the old Victorian bride's saying--

Something old, something new
Something borrowed, something blue
And a silver sixpence in her shoe.

Well, JSJr's put more than a sixpence in the coffers of Mormondom's shoe.

Ah, here comes the false analogy that something has to be unique to be true. I don't know why the critics have to trot this stupidity out again and again. Actually, I think if Mormonism teaches us anything, it is that we should seek the same type of experiences that Joseph Smith had to know that what he said is true.

Tobin wrote: Actually, I think if Mormonism teaches us anything, it is that we should seek the same type of experiences that Joseph Smith had to know that what he said is true.

Sex with anyone that strikes our interest (whether available or not) is the path to truth?

Quasimodo wrote:

Tobin wrote: Actually, I think if Mormonism teaches us anything, it is that we should seek the same type of experiences that Joseph Smith had to know that what he said is true.

Sex with anyone that strikes our interest (whether available or not) is the path to truth?

I've heard some have found God that way, but this may be an urban legend.

Tobin wrote:Ah, here comes the false analogy that something has to be unique to be true. I don't know why the critics have to trot this stupidity out again and again. Actually, I think if Mormonism teaches us anything, it is that we should seek the same type of experiences that Joseph Smith had to know that what he said is true.

Exactly my question in the 2nd witness part of the OP. Since both the Asa Wild (1823) and Norris Stearns (1815) post dated the 1812 vision, then maybe there visions where second witnesses.

If I understand your statmenet correctly, one might be as well to study the life and other revelations of these too gents and then go to God and see if they are true.

I also don't know why some continue to trot this stupidity out again and again that Mormons and others should go to God for their own revelation that what is being taught is true ... because as a whole it just does not happen, the people do not seek personal revelation and only a very small few, who tend to be considered apostate by the main body claim to have had such.

Tobin wrote:Ah, here comes the false analogy that something has to be unique to be true. I don't know why the critics have to trot this stupidity out again and again. Actually, I think if Mormonism teaches us anything, it is that we should seek the same type of experiences that Joseph Smith had to know that what he said is true.

Whenever I find out that Joe was a copycat, it tells me that he had to have been a true prophet.

RockSlider wrote:

Tobin wrote:Ah, here comes the false analogy that something has to be unique to be true. I don't know why the critics have to trot this stupidity out again and again. Actually, I think if Mormonism teaches us anything, it is that we should seek the same type of experiences that Joseph Smith had to know that what he said is true.

Exactly my question in the 2nd witness part of the OP. Since both the Asa Wild (1823) and Norris Stearns (1815) post dated the 1812 vision, then maybe there visions where second witnesses.

If I understand your statmenet correctly, one might be as well to study the life and other revelations of these too gents and then go to God and see if they are true.

I also don't know why some continue to trot this stupidity out again and again that Mormons and others should go to God for their own revelation that what is being taught is true ... because as a whole it just does not happen, the people do not seek personal revelation and only a very small few, who tend to be considered apostate by the main body claim to have had such.

I think as a Mormon, we should seek and endorse the truth. I hardly think Joseph Smith had all the truth or that Mormonism itself contains everything that is true. I also believe if you are really interested in the truth, there is no better way than learning the truth directly from God.

Hades wrote:

Tobin wrote:Ah, here comes the false analogy that something has to be unique to be true. I don't know why the critics have to trot this stupidity out again and again. Actually, I think if Mormonism teaches us anything, it is that we should seek the same type of experiences that Joseph Smith had to know that what he said is true.

Whenever I find out that Joe was a copycat, it tells me that he had to have been a true prophet.

Ah, so you have the view that for something to be true, it must have been unique and never occurred or happened to anyone else. I guess you don't believe that the Sun truly exists since more than one person has experienced that and on a regular basis too (oh my all those copycats out there).

Tobin wrote:Ah, so you have the view that for something to be true, it must have been unique and never occurred or happened to anyone else. I guess you don't believe that the Sun truly exists since more than one person has experienced that and on a regular basis too (oh my all those copycats out there).

The Sun? I see that everyday. You better come up with a better example than that.