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Franktalk wrote:In what time frame do you expect this to happen? Just how sure are you?

I'm not Quasimodo, but I agree with him. Mormonism isn't going to go into a rapid decline and disappear, but it will likely never be more than it is now: a fringe religion, a curiosity that most people don't think about at all. There will probably always be a core membership, but the days of rapid growth and "coming out of obscurity" are over.

Bob Loblaw wrote:

Franktalk wrote:In what time frame do you expect this to happen? Just how sure are you?

I'm not Quasimodo, but I agree with him. Mormonism isn't going to go into a rapid decline and disappear, but it will likely never be more than it is now: a fringe religion, a curiosity that most people don't think about at all. There will probably always be a core membership, but the days of rapid growth and "coming out of obscurity" are over.

Yup. Mormonism: the American Druzes..

Bob McCue has written a fair amount on how the real question about Joseph Smith and character should be was he reliable and/or trustworthy AND NOT was he a 'good guy' or not. I take it a step further and ask "Is there evidence that shows Joseph Smith was reliable as a Prophet?" Does he appear to be a trustworthy source of information from God as he claimed to be?

For me that's the only reason his character matters. His personal flaws are only pertinent as they affect his ability to reveal divine information. Beyond that Joseph is just like every other prominent historical figure that is not a prophet of God— human, error prone and interesting but little more.

But back to McCues point, if Smith was not a reliable person and was known to lie and deceive etc then to me at some point his prophetic role has to be questioned as well.

badseed wrote:Bob McCue has written a fair amount on how the real question about Joseph Smith and character should be was he reliable and/or trustworthy AND NOT was he a 'good guy' or not. I take it a step further and ask "Is there evidence that shows Joseph Smith was reliable as a Prophet?" Does he appear to be a trustworthy source of information from God as he claimed to be?

For me that's the only reason his character matters. His personal flaws are only pertinent as they affect his ability to reveal divine information. Beyond that Joseph is just like every other prominent historical figure that is not a prophet of God— human, error prone and interesting but little more.

But back to McCues point, if Smith was not a reliable person and was known to lie and deceive etc then to me at some point his prophetic role has to be questioned as well.

Actually, Joseph Smith's character is of little concern. It's his claims that matter and if you take but a moment to think about them, they seem preposterous. We are talking about someone claiming to see God, Angels, and have gold books land in their lap. Today, we would think someone that said things like that was completely nuts. So, there is no hope for such a person right?

Well, the problem is all the scriptures or holy books that many people hold in esteem contains accounts of people experiencing the same thing. It would seem to me that one should take a similarly dim view of their claims and question their mental state as well. In fact, as why me and I were discussing, the ONLY reason to believe any of this stuff is IF you experience it yourself. Without that witness, there is just no reason to believe any of it is true and you might as well just conclude they are all nuts, liars, frauds, and go on your merry way.

they are all nuts, liars, frauds, and go on your merry way.

Worth repeating.

I love geodes and the Mississippi river. Unfortunately, many LDS left Hancock County, but haven't left Hancock County alone.

Tobin wrote:Actually, Joseph Smith's character is of little concern. It's his claims that matter and if you take but a moment to think about them, they seem preposterous. We are talking about someone claiming to see God, Angels, and have gold books land in their lap. Today, we would think someone that said things like that was completely nuts. So, there is no hope for such a person right?

Well, the problem is all the scriptures or holy books that many people hold in esteem contains accounts of people experiencing the same thing. It would seem to me that one should take a similarly dim view of their claims and question their mental state as well. In fact, as why me and I were discussing, the ONLY reason to believe any of this stuff is IF you experience it yourself. Without that witness, there is just no reason to believe any of it is true and you might as well just conclude they are all nuts, liars, frauds, and go on your merry way.

I don't understand why God would present us with stuff that is clearly and obviously fake, and then expect us to ask Him if it's true anyway. And not only that, he punishes us for rejecting that which on its face is ridiculous. Sounds like a sick “F” to me.

Bob Loblaw wrote:I don't understand why God would present us with stuff that is clearly and obviously fake, and then expect us to ask Him if it's true anyway. And not only that, he punishes us for rejecting that which on its face is ridiculous. Sounds like a sick f*** to me.

Don't go confusing Joseph with God, Bob. Joseph recreated God in his own image, not the other way around.

MCB wrote:

they are all nuts, liars, frauds, and go on your merry way.

Worth repeating.

I love geodes and the Mississippi river. Unfortunately, many LDS left Hancock County, but haven't left Hancock County alone.

You got that right!!

harmony wrote:Don't go confusing Joseph with God, Bob. Joseph recreated God in his own image, not the other way around.

I just mean that if Joseph was telling the truth about what God did and said to him, God is one sick idiot.

MCB wrote:

they are all nuts, liars, frauds, and go on your merry way.

Worth repeating.

Unfortunately, many LDS left Hancock County, but haven't left Hancock County alone.

Yes, that is very unfortunate. Maybe it is time to organize the people's militia to protect the area from the influence of those dang Mormons.