Apocalyptic worldviews and current events

[_honorentheos]

As tensions between Hamas and Israel have boiled over into deadly actions and there is a very real potential of an Israeli ground assault into the Gaza Strip, I found myself wondering how MDB members view these events? The group here is as diverse as any, with a very wide spectrum of belief represented.

While an active member of the LDS faith, I had believed that end time events would center around Israel and I can only imagine how easy it would be for someone to wonder: Is this the time? I think I might have at one point in my life.

Combine this with Romney’s defeat last week and the accompanying sense many have of American decline, not to mention the fiscal cliff hysteria, and it seems more than a few people might suddenly find themselves deciding it is time to get right with God and freshen up the food storage inventory. Or, maybe, convert to the Mayan religion…there’s a month left for that kind of death bed repentance.

So, regardless of whether you’re a never-mo, a current believer, a NOM, or have left the church - do you see anything significant in current events that is foreshadowing some cosmic shake-up of the status quo?

And second, is it wrong for humans to try and change events if doing so might postpone the second coming (if you're inclined to believe in such)?

[_Philidel]

Combine this with Romney’s defeat last week and the accompanying sense many have of American decline, not to mention the fiscal cliff hysteria, and it seems more than a few people might suddenly find themselves deciding it is time to get right with God and freshen up the food storage inventory.

The world's a big place, rife with suffering, intrigue, disappointment, joy. All due respect, and I realise you didn't mean to suggest an America-centric view in your question, the defeat of a questionably qualified candidate for US president and the irresponsibility of certain American politicians, combined with the escalation of Israeli-Palestinian hostilities brought on by intransigence, does not necessarily signal the end of the world to the world at large.

[_honorentheos]

The world's a big place, rife with suffering, intrigue, disappointment, joy. All due respect, and I realise you didn't mean to suggest an America-centric view in your question, the defeat of a questionably qualified candidate for US president and the irresponsibility of certain American politicians, combined with the escalation of Israeli-Palestinian hostilities brought on by intransigence, does not necessarily signal the end of the world to the world at large.

A fair point. In a very real sense, your comment underlines the subtext of my thinking. In a way, I am not only suggesting an America-centric view, I'm requiring it to be able to answer the question of the OP. Or perhaps better said, the OP is asking a question that serves to reveal one's particular centricities.

On a Mormon-related message board perhaps I'm too comfortable assuming any reader has at least some grounding in American apocalyptic thinking. I doubt someone who's primary worldview lies outside of western Christianity could even begin to apprehend the premise of the OP.

[_Philidel]

On a Mormon-related message board perhaps I'm too comfortable assuming any reader has at least some grounding in American apocalyptic thinking. I doubt someone who's primary worldview lies outside of western Christianity could even begin to apprehend the premise of the OP.

So I am not disqualified from answering. In my formative years, my worldview was very much informed by an US/Mormon worldview.

Now that I have, shall we say, the luxury of seeing the world from an other perspective, perhaps I can offer a small 'reality check' on the apocryphal thinking you're referencing and with which I'm all too familiar. The end-times drama seen from certain corners in the US would be very much disputed elsewhere. For one thing, from my perspective, the election of Romney, not his defeat, would have signalled crisis to those beyond US shores.

Perhaps I should have not put my oar in. I believe I know what you're asking, but I felt I should point out how far removed from the consciousness of the rest of the world are the narrow confines within which the crises you enumerate lie. Certainly, the world hopes that the children in Congress will grow up enough to discuss the economic realities; another economic crisis in the US would again hurt the rest of us. However, that is not the same as saying that a crisis of confidence there marks the end of the world elsewhere. Reality check, that's all.

[_honorentheos]

Thanks, Philidel, I think you captured my own personal sentiment with this -

Certainly, the world hopes that the children in Congress will grow up enough to discuss the economic realities; another economic crisis in the US would again hurt the rest of us. However, that is not the same as saying that a crisis of confidence there marks the end of the world elsewhere.

Having lived a broad a few times myself I don't know if I can truly be called a citizen of the world but I'm all too aware that there are far more people living successful, happy lives in ways foreign to we Americans than we generally accept.

That said, I'm not sure I could begin to fathom myself how someone within other forms of apocalyptic thinking might be viewing the events of today. But how to begin if one never engages in dialog with other's views?

With that in mind, I would say "dip your oar in", since whether to splash or pull hard the interest comes from the churn of the water.

When seeking a still pond, I don't come here.

[_Bond James Bond]

As tensions between Hamas and Israel have boiled over into deadly actions and there is a very real potential of an Israeli ground assault into the Gaza Strip, I found myself wondering how MDB members view these events? The group here is as diverse as any, with a very wide spectrum of belief represented.

Sounds just like 2008 blueprint to me.

1) Gaza militants shoot some random rockets at populated Israeli sites and kill a few Israelis.

2) Israel responds with top of the line strikes against the militants and kill ten times as many civilians in the process until the militants have been beaten down.

3) Expect repeat around 2015-17.

[_Philidel]

That said, I'm not sure I could begin to fathom myself how someone within other forms of apocalyptic thinking might be viewing the events of today. But how to begin if one never engages in dialog with other's views?

With that in mind, I would say "dip your oar in", since whether to splash or pull hard the interest comes from the churn of the water.

Thank you. Your original question is an interesting one. I hope my remarks don't derail the thread.

[_honorentheos]

Sounds just like 2008 blueprint to me.

1) Gaza militants shoot some random rockets at populated Israeli sites and kill a few Israelis.

2) Israel responds with top of the line strikes against the militants and kill ten times as many civilians in the process until the militants have been beaten down.

3) Expect repeat around 2015-17.

Maybe. I don't think either side wants to push too far and what you describe seems reasonable.

But the broader context has changed since 2008. Egypt is not the same player as it was then. Israel's neighbor Syria is in outright civil war which had already splashed across that border. Iran and the infamous "red line" of nuclear armament...another shift from 2008.

The geo-political fabric of the region has evolved enough that it could easily change the way this plays out. Egypt by itself is a significant enough unknown. Morsi seems to be walking the diplomatic line between hardliners in his country, Hamas, and keeping on good terms with the West that it could even end up better than in '08. But who really knows until it's happened?

The OP isn't really about Israel and Hamas, though. I'm mainly curious if anyone on the board holds end-time beliefs and sees current events as having some significance to that end? And maybe most importantly, is it wrong to try and put the brakes on them if it is possible? Should someone who believes try and live as if the world will go on for another billion years? Or is it best to live for God in whatever way they think that means, and look forward only to eternity? The future of a mortal earth being predestined and not to be interfered with?

[_Bond James Bond]

Maybe. I don't think either side wants to push too far and what you describe seems reasonable.

But the broader context has changed since 2008. Egypt is not the same player as it was then. Israel's neighbor Syria is in outright civil war which had already splashed across that border. Iran and the infamous "red line" of nuclear armament...another shift from 2008.

The geo-political fabric of the region has evolved enough that it could easily change the way this plays out. Egypt by itself is a significant enough unknown. Morsi seems to be walking the diplomatic line between hardliners in his country, Hamas, and keeping on good terms with the West that it could even end up better than in '08. But who really knows until it's happened?

I think Egypt, Syria, and Iran are too mired in their own problems to do anything for the Palestinians. Besides all of those countries know the US is going to back Israel unconditionally anyway so why get even further on America's bad side? But as stated crazy stuff happens all the time.

The OP isn't really about Israel and Hamas, though. I'm mainly curious if anyone on the board holds end-time beliefs and sees current events as having some significance to that end? And maybe most importantly, is it wrong to try and put the brakes on them if it is possible? Should someone who believes try and live as if the world will go on for another billion years? Or is it best to live for God in whatever way they think that means, and look forward only to eternity? The future of a mortal earth being predestined and not to be interfered with?

I don't. Even when I was held theistic beliefs I never took the Revelation stuff literally. Too much historically literacy about the Roman Empire I guess. I'm sure there are a lot of people in America who deep in their souls want a major war to break out in the Middle East so that Jesus will come back and scorch the Muslims from the Middle East.

[_Mary]

Maybe helpful to remember that Jesus of Nazareth and Paul were apocalyptic in outlook. There's some passage somewhere in the New Testament canon that suggests that 'this generation shall not pass away' except they see the coming of the son of man. Words to that effect anyway.

It was one of the worries that Paul had to counter as people started to die off. 200 years later they really had to revise their thinking about the end times.

Also important to remember that Revelations was written by an unknown author and as far as can be told was relevant to the age of Nero.