Can't get Mormonism from just the Quad?

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_MrStakhanovite
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Can't get Mormonism from just the Quad?

Post by _MrStakhanovite »

In a recent blog postI stated this:

One of the messages I wanted to get across (and I’m unsure that I was able to effectively communicate this) was that to the person outside of Islam, you can’t get Islam from the Qur’an. Just like you can’t get Mormonism from just the Book of Mormon and Pearl of Great Price, Judaism from the Tanakh, nor any form of Christianity from the Holy Bible.


Would you folk agree or disagree with that?


ETA: Warning; that blog post has more to do with Islam and has more material about Islam than the entirety of DCP's Patheos blog.

ETA 2: Pic Unrelated

Image
_Doctor Scratch
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Re: Can't get Mormonism from just the Quad?

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

Yes, I agree wholeheartedly with that, Mr. Stak. After all, there are significant chunks of LDS who've never even read those texts all the way through, and they don't seem to have much of a problem "feeling" Mormon, nor does the Church have any problems in terms of recognizing them as members in full standing. Furthermore, very little of what we'd consider "Mormon culture" is in any meaningful way connected to LDS scriptures.
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
_Racer
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Re: Can't get Mormonism from just the Quad?

Post by _Racer »

I agree. You can't get Mormonism from just the Quad.

1. Book of Mormon has almost "0" representation of Mormon Doctrine. If one were to read the Book of Mormon, with no other knowledge about Mormonism, they would surmise it is a New Testament Evangelical Protestant faith based on accepting Jesus and being saved.

2. D&C has a few extra items in it, but again very little detail, and a lot of wasted sections about God telling so and so to go on a mission, or sell his house, or believe in Joseph Smith. How do you correlate section 132 to the year 2012? How does the WOW (D&C 89) even resemble the WOW that Mormons practice today?

3. PGP is a great representation of how Mormons believe in the creation and what the afterlife will be like (but all the juicy details are in the endowment session). Also include a bunch of bogus interpretations of papyri facsimiles the church admits are not the real "Book of Abraham", but yet still misleadingly publishes.

I would say the majority of Mo beliefs and culture stem from non-canonized talks/books/writings of the past and former GA's. This creates an even stickier situation since these talks/books/writings of past and former GA's can be fully adhered to for decades and then, fully abandoned and or denied ("we don't believe that, or we never taught that") based on the popular opinion of the times.

Today's Mormonism is not your Dad's or Grandpa's Mormonism. The Quad has essentially stayed consistent throughout this albeit minor changes. If the Quad was so detrimental to spelling out Mormonism, the church doctrine should be fairly unwavering over the past generations.
Last edited by Guest on Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Can't get Mormonism from just the Quad?

Post by _Shiloh »

MrStakhanovite wrote:
Would you folk agree or disagree with that?



Fully.

Consider the Temple, for example. Its centrality in modern LDS spirituality is highly disproportionate to its scriptural support/exposition. Only by observing the wider culture can you really "get" how/why the Temple became the center of LDS worship.

ETA: Warning; that blog post has more to do with Islam and has more material about Islam than the entirety of DCP's Patheos blog.


The writing on the men's bathroom wall at the truckstop just a bit east of Boise has more material about Islam than the entirety of DCP's Ass-hol... errr.. Patheos blog.
_honorentheos
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Re: Can't get Mormonism from just the Quad?

Post by _honorentheos »

MrStakhanovite wrote:In a recent blog postI stated this:

One of the messages I wanted to get across (and I’m unsure that I was able to effectively communicate this) was that to the person outside of Islam, you can’t get Islam from the Qur’an. Just like you can’t get Mormonism from just the Book of Mormon and Pearl of Great Price, Judaism from the Tanakh, nor any form of Christianity from the Holy Bible.


Would you folk agree or disagree with that?


Your comment and blog reminded me of somethings I had read by Boston University's Professor of Religion, Stephen Prothero, a couple of years back. Your blog's conclusion is in line with his conclusions - to understand a religion requires more than familiarity with it's foundational texts.

Prothero's view is that to start to understand a religion begins from this premise: Religions generally agree that there is something wrong with the world. Outside of this, there is much less common ground.

His approach for outsiders to attempt understanding is helpful, in my opinion, and begins from the shared starting point above: If something is wrong with the world, then how does each religion answer these questions?

- What is the actual problem? (what is wrong with the world?)
- What is the solution, or a solution, to the problem as outlined?
- What techniques are proscribed for moving from the problem to the solution?
- Who is the exemplar who personifies the path for following the technique?

One of the reasons I think you see what you do with Islam, if Prothero is approximately correct, is that reading the Qu'ran is perhaps the most comprehensive way to outline the problem and the solution, but only if you already know the problem and are looking for the solution. In Prothero's view, the broad answers to the four questions above would be:

- The problem is self-sufficiency, pride, denying Allah
- The solution is prostration, submission to Allah
- The technique is the four pillars of Islam
- The exemplar is the Prophet

It seems to me natural for someone inside of the tradition to attempt to explain all of the above by handing you the Qu'ran and with it ask, "Do you not understand?"

I bring that up to set up my comment on the OP: No religious text can answer those four questions by themselves, but to answer the four questions requires reading the sacred texts.

For Mormonism, I'd suggest the four questions can be answered as follows:

- What is the problem?
A: Apostacy from Christ's pure word

- What is the solution?
A: Restoration

- Technique for achieving this?
A: Priesthood with it's ordinances

- Exemplar?
A: Joseph Smith

Within that context, it seems that each book of the standard works supports the solution. Each is, in it's own way, part of the restoration of all things. Each, in it's own way, evidences the priesthood ordinances needed to become restored ourselves in the true relationship with God. To the professed Mormon, how could someone live Mormonism without the standard works? Without them, there would be no restoration.

So, while I agree with the OP in general, I think it's not a wholely useful observation by itself. One has to use it as a beginning and not an end.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
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_bcspace
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Re: Can't get Mormonism from just the Quad?

Post by _bcspace »

Would you folk agree or disagree with that?


Agreed. In the LDS context the doctrine merely resides in the scriptures, the FP and Qo12 establish and publish it. You have to read the works published by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints if you want to understand Mormonism.
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_moksha
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Re: Can't get Mormonism from just the Quad?

Post by _moksha »

It is hard to argue with the unwritten order of things. Much better to feel the fear and obey it anyway.
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_TrashcanMan79
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Re: Can't get Mormonism from just the Quad?

Post by _TrashcanMan79 »

bcspace wrote:
Would you folk agree or disagree with that?

Agreed. In the LDS context the doctrine merely resides in the scriptures, the FP and Qo12 establish and publish it. You have to read the works published by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints if you want to understand Mormonism.

I don't think I really disagree with you here, BC, but help me understand this: How can the FP and Qo12 "establish" doctrine that already exists and "resides" in the Scriptures? Wouldn't the "establishment" of doctrine have occurred at its writing (as Scripture)?
_RockSlider
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Re: Can't get Mormonism from just the Quad?

Post by _RockSlider »

bcspace wrote:Agreed. In the LDS context the doctrine merely resides in the scriptures, the FP and Qo12 establish and publish it. You have to read the works published by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints if you want to understand Mormonism.


Yes, all ones nees is the Ensign to know the true doctrine of the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ in this dispensation of the fullness of times.
_ludwigm
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Re: Can't get Mormonism from just the Quad?

Post by _ludwigm »

RockSlider wrote:
bcspace wrote:Agreed. In the LDS context the doctrine merely resides in the scriptures, the FP and Qo12 establish and publish it. You have to read the works published by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints if you want to understand Mormonism.
Yes, all ones needs is the Ensign to know the true doctrine of the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ in this dispensation of the fullness of times.
... before the Ensign reaches the level of JoD ...

Then comes the new source, the Watchtower. Oops, it is taken by JW.
Then Torch. Oops, it is Blackberry.
Well, there will be something new.
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