Church leaders as people or as empty icons?

[_zeezrom]

As TBMs, did you ever look at the 12 apostles differently than normal people? Did you consider them to be unreachable icons, representing the standards of our beliefs? Did you ever look at them as regular people? I, for one, never did look at them as regular people. While I never looked at the 12 as perfect, I did look at them as icons and symbols. I think this was a mistake. It prevented me from ever criticizing their ideas. By missing out on the human aspect of the leaders of my religion, they had become empty shells. The image below is a nice depiction of what they were to me.


Tara Marynowsky
The Russians, 2009

[_sunstoned]

Growing up in an uber TBM family, it was modeled for me to view the big 15 as inspired, chosen leaders. Anything they (first presidency, Q12, Seventies) said was considered a straight channel from God. My parents were big on obedience, blind obedience. They still are.

My father still brings up quotes from general conference or area authority speeches to try and chastise me into repenting and returning to the fold. He cannot get over the fact that I do not recognize their authority. He and my mother have wasted their lives and resources following the teachings of a bunch of frauds.

My parents are foolish, but I am convinced that many, if not all of the GAs know they do not get revelation or speak for God. They might have convinced themselves they are doing a good thing, kind of an ends justifies the means thing. But deception is deception, and in my opinion, they are lower than dirt.

[_sock puppet]

Growing up in an uber TBM family, it was modeled for me to view the big 15 as inspired, chosen leaders. Anything they (first presidency, Q12, Seventies) said was considered a straight channel from God. My parents were big on obedience, blind obedience. They still are.

My father still brings up quotes from general conference or area authority speeches to try and chastise me into repenting and returning to the fold. He cannot get over the fact that I do not recognize their authority. He and my mother have wasted their lives and resources following the teachings of a bunch of frauds.

My parents are foolish, but I am convinced that many, if not all of the GAs know they do not get revelation or speak for God. They might have convinced themselves they are doing a good thing, kind of an ends justifies the means thing. But deception is deception, and in my opinion, they are lower than dirt.

So you allow for the possibility that some of the GAs might simply be delusional rather than frauds. Generous of you, very generous of you.

[_RockSlider]

So you allow for the possibility that some of the GAs might simply be delusional rather than frauds. Generous of you, very generous of you.

Morning sock ... dang dude its black Friday, no sleeping in?

It is interesting that you never hear in GC anymore ... a "Special Witness" from our Special Witnesses

[_LDSToronto]

It is interesting that you never hear in GC anymore ... a "Special Witness" from our Special Witnesses

Seven times in General Conference since 2010.

[_LDSToronto]

As TBMs, did you ever look at the 12 apostles differently than normal people? Did you consider them to be unreachable icons, representing the standards of our beliefs? Did you ever look at them as regular people? I, for one, never did look at them as regular people. While I never looked at the 12 as perfect, I did look at them as icons and symbols. I think this was a mistake. It prevented me from ever criticizing their ideas. By missing out on the human aspect of the leaders of my religion, they had become empty shells. The image below is a nice depiction of what they were to me.

Rock stars. The 15 are rock stars to most, especially to the women. So much fawning over them and jockeying for position when they are around. I swear, if it weren't for the law of chastity, those guys would get a boatload of...well, you know..

I'm serious - it astounds me how gushy women get over these guys when they are around. And the LDS men - they are like hangers-on, echoing every word that comes out of their mouths.

Oh to be a GA. I'd work it.

H.

[_harmony]

Oh to be a GA. I'd work it.

H.

One thing's for sure: you'd never spend another dime of your own money.

[_madeleine]

As TBMs, did you ever look at the 12 apostles differently than normal people? Did you consider them to be unreachable icons, representing the standards of our beliefs? Did you ever look at them as regular people? I, for one, never did look at them as regular people. While I never looked at the 12 as perfect, I did look at them as icons and symbols. I think this was a mistake. It prevented me from ever criticizing their ideas. By missing out on the human aspect of the leaders of my religion, they had become empty shells. The image below is a nice depiction of what they were to me.


Tara Marynowsky
The Russians, 2009

Z, for most of my life, which has been as an ex-Mormon, I viewed "the brethren" as shady characters at best. A huge distrust, that at times had a border of fear around it. Finally, a friend said to me, "they're just men".

oh.

I see it in ex-Mormon writing, here and other places. Fear, loathing, etc. I think it is reaction to men who have been put on a pedestal and are groomed to have a public persona that is meant to convey an idea of specialness. Those who believe, give them rock star status, those who don't, want to tear down the pedestal.

They're just men, and their pedestal is manmade.

[_Fence Sitter]

Rock stars. The 15 are rock stars to most, especially to the women. So much fawning over them and jockeying for position when they are around. I swear, if it weren't for the law of chastity, those guys would get a boatload of...well, you know..

I'm serious - it astounds me how gushy women get over these guys when they are around. And the LDS men - they are like hangers-on, echoing every word that comes out of their mouths.

Oh to be a GA. I'd work it.

H.

Can you imagine if the Church still practiced polygamy? They would have to give out back stage passes at conference. Instead of a single apartment building in downtown SLC for the brethren, they each would have their own high rise.

[_jo1952]

Growing up in an uber TBM family, it was modeled for me to view the big 15 as inspired, chosen leaders. Anything they (first presidency, Q12, Seventies) said was considered a straight channel from God. My parents were big on obedience, blind obedience. They still are.

My father still brings up quotes from general conference or area authority speeches to try and chastise me into repenting and returning to the fold. He cannot get over the fact that I do not recognize their authority. He and my mother have wasted their lives and resources following the teachings of a bunch of frauds.

My parents are foolish, but I am convinced that many, if not all of the GAs know they do not get revelation or speak for God. They might have convinced themselves they are doing a good thing, kind of an ends justifies the means thing. But deception is deception, and in my opinion, they are lower than dirt.

This is something Joseph Smith and Brigham Young feared would happen. Yet, this is just something that mankind does. We are always placing others on pedestals; and when that person falls off the pedestal we placed them on, we blame them or we blame God and not ourselves. It happens in all walks of life - not just inside of religion. Whatever we hold close in beliefs, be they worldly or spiritually sourced, becomes something we want to defend....frequently at all costs. Ego, pride, greed, lust...all that stems from darkness...can and do cloud our minds and the choices we make and the way we see things.

As far as religion goes, this very thing repeats itself over and over again. We can see its effects everywhere in Christendom and in other world religions. The LDS Church has no exclusivity in this area. I hope not to see the day when members of the LDS Church, or of any church for that matter, start bowing down to their church leaders, or begin to pray to their images like members of the RCC do to the Pope and others in leadership positions, or to the statues of current and/or past leaders, saints, etc.

Because of the way you feel about the LDS Church, it will appear to you that your parents have wasted their lives and resources. To God, however, their faithfulness to what they believe to be True is counted as righteousness. God is interested in our spirits; not in our flesh bodies. It is the intent of our heart which matters. It appers from what little you have shared, you spend much energy hating the LDS Church leaders...becoming blinded by that hate. Your parents are just as attached to their feelings for the Church; though their feelings appear to be founded in love. Ironically, however, they can be just as blinded by feelings of love as you can be blinded by feelings of hate. And so your father's concern for you, his son, are blinding him to how his actions and words are effecting you. The adversary uses our best qualities against us.

This struggle between darkness and Light surrounds us continually while we are in bodies of flesh. It isn't easy; it wasn't meant to be easy. It is through the struggling we will eventual learn what it is that we need to learn. We cannot do someone else's learning for them; and others cannot do our learning for us.

I believe that is why the two greatest commandments have been given. In striving to keep them regardless of our circumstances or what has befallen us (or how we perceive them), learning to keep those two commandments will give us the ability to overcome. All of us have our own personal journey to take which is unique to each of us. What you see from your point of view is entirely different from how your parents see it. "Rightness" or "wrongness" do not have the powers mankind gives them. It is how all three of you deal with your perceptions and the choices you make as a result of what you see and understand at any given point which determines whether you are making forward progress in your journey, or whether you are digressing in your journey.

Be at peace within yourself no matter what is going on around you.

Blessings,

jo