How Many Here Believe Joseph Smith was a Prophet?

[_Tobin]

I admit the idea is my own based on my distrust for their deviant nature.

I suppose that once one throws out all historical records and recollections, anything is possible.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

That isn't everything she's thrown out. Logic, reason, and common-sense were clearly thrown out too and filled her mind with non-sense instead. As George Carlin liked to joke, garbage in garbage out.

[_Chap]

Mummies arrive on tour. They are accompanied by papyrus scrolls with real Egyptian writing on them.

Joseph Smith's followers are enthused - Hey, our prophet can translate Egyptian stuff! Let's buy those papyri for him.

Joseph Smith is presented with those rather pricey purchases. His followers look at him expectantly.

Does he say:

(a) Hey guys, this isn't the kind of Egyptian I can translate. You wasted your money.

(b) Hey guys, this is cool! I mean, some of this is by Abraham - and this is by Joseph! (Then goes away and makes up a lot of stuff).

Guess which.

This is not a complicated story, is it? It is also a rather likely and economical one, compared to the other competing stories that attempt to explain the origin of the Book of Abraham.

[Guest]

Are you sure your not thinking about Martin Harris visit to Anthon in Feb 1828 well before the papyri arrived in Kirtland?

I haven't read that particular event for a while.
Thank you for the name clarification.
You're right, Harris went to Anthon. Smith didn't join him.

I recall reading how convenient that visit was for Joseph Smith.
It's extremely likely that he got snippets of data and ideas from that visit.
It certainly makes more sense than getting the information from God.
(hoping that omniscient God has better information than either Smith or Anthon at that time.)

After a while the lies blurred to the point that I don't trust a word that comes out of their pens....or today their keyboard or mouth.

F.S., how do you determine when they were lying and when they were telling the truth, or twisting it? Or do you?

[Guest]

I admit the idea is my own based on my distrust for their deviant nature.

I suppose that once one throws out all historical records and recollections, anything is possible.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

I guess that once you accept all the lies they wrote anything is possible...
even a testimony of its truth!

in this case testimony = programming

Wishing you and yours a Truth-filled 2013 Consiglieri.

best,

Joan

[_Fence Sitter]

F.S., how do you determine when they were lying and when they were telling the truth, or twisting it? Or do you?

I am not a historian or scholar. (Quite obvious to all I think.) The amount of written data from that era is enormous, well beyond what the average Joe would begin to imagine. We have extensive multiple sources to compare for these events, some critical some sympathetic to Joseph Smith. A lot of source material is in the form of newspapers, court records and civil records which are not sympathetic or critical but are quite useful to verify personal statements, like where people were and when. We really do know a lot about what went on back then. Having been raised in the Church, one thing that struck me most profoundly, when the internet opened up Church History, was the staggering amount of information recorded at that time.

For an example I would suggest a quick browse of two sites. (Warning, a quick browse of either site is not really possible.) You may be aware of both of them but they do give a glimpse into the quantity of historical material available.

Dale Broadhurst Sites
Joseph Smith Papers Project

When were 'they' (I am not entirely sure who 'they' even is) lying and when were they telling the truth?

The answer would be in all that information and then some. People read the same sources and come to different opinions. for what it's worth I have changed my opinion several times over the last few years on a variety of issues about when I thought Joseph Smith knew he was misleading people and when he was sincere. I find him a fascinating figure.

My tag line is a quote from Fawn Brodie's No Man Knows My History that I think accurately summarizes Joseph Smith, I also think it would describe a lot of other people who had control over how their own history is written.

Have you read Rough Stone Rolling by Bushman?

By the way Consigleri may be a believer, but I would take him as a neighbor, friend and a teacher any day. He would easily make my top five list of people with whom I would love to talk in real life about the Church.

[_consiglieri]

I guess that once you accept all the lies they wrote anything is possible...
even a testimony of it's truth!

in this case testimony = programming

Wishing you and yours a Truth-filled 2013 Consiglieri.

best,

Joan

Thanks, Joan!

Probably poor form of me to make my first comment to you a snarky one.

I apologize.

I believe in the Mormonism that is all about truth.

I try my best to find it, wherever the journey takes me.

I know it is a bad scene to discover the church has deceived you.

I don't give the church a pass on that.

Warmest regards!

--Consiglieri

[_consiglieri]

By the way Consigleri may be a believer, but I would take him as a neighbor, friend and a teacher any day. He would easily make my top five list of people with whom I would love to talk in real life about the Church.

The same right back atcha Fence Sitter!

I am not exaggerating when I say this comment almost brought me to tears, recognizing that I feel more welcome on this forum than in my own ward.

Thanks for the kind words.

--Consiglieri

[_GR33N]

I believe Joseph Smith was and is a prophet of God through whom God restored His Church. I also believe the Bible and the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

[_SteelHead]

Servant,
are you the same person using this "servant" moniker on the NOM board saying you believe Joseph was a prophet?

Just for clarification.....

[_Joan]

F.S., how do you determine when they were lying and when they were telling the truth, or twisting it? Or do you?

I am not a historian or scholar. (Quite obvious to all I think.) The amount of written data from that era is enormous, well beyond what the average Joe would begin to imagine. We have extensive multiple sources to compare for these events, some critical some sympathetic to Joseph Smith. A lot of source material is in the form of newspapers, court records and civil records which are not sympathetic or critical but are quite useful to verify personal statements, like where people were and when. We really do know a lot about what went on back then. Having been raised in the Church, one thing that struck me most profoundly, when the internet opened up Church History, was the staggering amount of information recorded at that time.

For an example I would suggest a quick browse of two sites. (Warning, a quick browse of either site is not really possible.) You may be aware of both of them but they do give a glimpse into the quantity of historical material available.

Dale Broadhurst Sites
Joseph Smith Papers Project

When were 'they' (I am not entirely sure who 'they' even is) lying and when were they telling the truth?

The answer would be in all that information and then some. People read the same sources and come to different opinions. for what it's worth I have changed my opinion several times over the last few years on a variety of issues about when I thought Joseph Smith knew he was misleading people and when he was sincere. I find him a fascinating figure.

My tag line is a quote from Fawn Brodie's No Man Knows My History that I think accurately summarizes Joseph Smith, I also think it would describe a lot of other people who had control over how their own history is written.

Have you read Rough Stone Rolling by Bushman?

By the way Consigleri may be a believer, but I would take him as a neighbor, friend and a teacher any day. He would easily make my top five list of people with whom I would love to talk in real life about the Church.

Yes, there is quite a lot of information.
Thanks for the websites.
I really like Dales site. He's a wise man. Every so often I head to rfm and have been expanded by his wisdom.

I have been able to read only snippets of the Bushman book. Its timing and motive made me a little too emotional to push through...every time I started I'd get annoyed and have to put it down.

I haven't read further to check the possibility of Joseph Smith gaining Book of Abraham creative fodder from information that may have been previously gained by their visit to Anthon. It was only a question that (after reading about it) descended upon my mind like the dew of a summer morning.

(By 'they' I was referring to lds writers/record keepers - past and present.)
My distrust for 'them' knows no bounds.
I would be interested if there's a record from Anthon detailing the communication. It may or may not indicate information which could have ignited Joseph Smith imagination.

I'm not sure the rest of the U.S.A was as prolific in their record keeping as the lds, but you're right, the lds' propensity for journaling has been their undoing.
The main problem with that however is that the people back then were as duped as we were today. It's hard to trust the record of a people that duped. (I think it was William Law who claimed that many members didn't even know polygamy was practiced back then.)

Yes, I too have delighted in the few things I've read from Conseglieri.