Utah Sheriffs: "Won't take our guns without a fight"

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_honorentheos
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Re: Utah Sheriffs: "Won't take our guns without a fight"

Post by _honorentheos »

bcspace wrote:
So, where is your issue with the proposed gun control initiatives in relation to the ruling in DC vs. Heler? Weapons types restrictions (of which assault-type weapons could be classed), registration of weapons, limitations on where a weapon could be carried and on certain elements of society such as felons and the mentally ill are all addressed. With what are you actually taking issue?


Heller? None of it. When beastie is able to address her original false premise, then we can address Heller.

Spell it out for me, bc. What is beastie's false premise?
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Re: Utah Sheriffs: "Won't take our guns without a fight"

Post by _bcspace »

Spell it out for me, bc. What is beastie's false premise?


That there was actual security at the Columbine and VA Tech events which might have prevented them but did not.
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Re: Utah Sheriffs: "Won't take our guns without a fight"

Post by _Chap »

bcspace wrote:
Spell it out for me, bc. What is beastie's false premise?


That there was actual security at the Columbine and VA Tech events which might have prevented them but did not.


Yes. The more a society needs heavily armed guards at every public event, ready to shoot any crazy assault rifle carrying person the minute they make a move, the better and more secure that society is. There is no other way.

I suppose that the Church Handbook of Instructions mandates bishops to make sure that every meeting house has at least two people armed with automatic weapons on the lookout all the time a service is in progress?
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Re: Utah Sheriffs: "Won't take our guns without a fight"

Post by _honorentheos »

bcspace wrote:
Spell it out for me, bc. What is beastie's false premise?


That there was actual security at the Columbine and VA Tech events which might have prevented them but did not.

And this has to do with a discussion on the 2nd amendment how?

There is a term that comes to mind when I think of a society where everyone has to go around armed all the time.

Failed state.
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Re: Utah Sheriffs: "Won't take our guns without a fight"

Post by _bcspace »

I'll give you another tidbit from Scalia in Heller:

We reach the question, then: Does the preface fit with an operative clause that creates an individual right to keep and bear arms? It fits perfectly, once one knows the history that the founding generation knew and that we have described above. That history showed that the way tyrants had eliminated a militia consisting of all the able-bodied men was not by banning the militia but simply by taking away the people’s arms, enabling a select militia or standing army to suppress political opponents. This is what had occurred in England that prompted codification of the right to have arms in the English Bill of Rights.


This of course is leading up to a defense of the notion that one of the proper purposes of the Second Amendment is for protection against governments. To wit Scalia says regarding the times in 1788 when the Constitution was being argued:

It was understood across the political spectrum [Federalist and anti Federalist] that the right helped to secure the ideal of a citizen militia, which might be necessary to oppose an oppressive military force if the constitutional order broke down.


.....................

That there was actual security at the Columbine and VA Tech events which might have prevented them but did not.

Yes. The more a society needs heavily armed guards at every public event, ready to shoot any crazy assault rifle carrying person the minute they make a move, the better and more secure that society is. There is no other way.


That was not beastie's argument, at first. She argues that security was there and so it did not matter if even there is trained armed personel. The premise is flawed because:

1) I never proposed that there be armed guards anywhere. I merely propose that law abiding citizens have the right to choose when and where they will be armed.
2) Security was not on the scene in each of those events, the one Columbine security guard being at lunch, etc.
3) Her solution erroneously assumes (even if the original erroneous assumption is correct) that no armed person or persons could have stopped these events and doesn't take into account the NUMEROUS and almost infinite (by comparison) events in which guns have saved lives, protected property, prevented rape, etc.

In other words, the only real nuts here are those proposing a disarmed or weaker armed law-abiding citizenry.

I suppose that the Church Handbook of Instructions mandates bishops to make sure that every meeting house has at least two people armed with automatic weapons on the lookout all the time a service is in progress?


I would merely suggest the Church allow any law abiding citizen to be armed anytime, anywhere, in a Church venue. While I do not oppose the right of the Church or other private organizations to ban guns on the premises (recall that most schools are public, not private), I strongly recommend against it, LDS Church or otherwise.

And this has to do with a discussion on the 2nd amendment how?


How many armed and law abiding citizens were there on the scene in each case? Where there any rules that discouraged any law abiding citizen from being armed? It has plenty to do with the Second Amendment.

There is a term that comes to mind when I think of a society where everyone has to go around armed all the time.
Failed state.


Anyone who knows history would think free state. Of course when you add in warlordism (such as Islam) you get a failed state. But if there is a US-like Constitution that is being upheld, the armed law abiding citizens are in a free state.
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Re: Utah Sheriffs: "Won't take our guns without a fight"

Post by _Extra Soup »

How many armed and law abiding citizens were there on the scene in each case? Where there any rules that discouraged any law abiding citizen from being armed? It has plenty to do with the Second Amendment.


Perhaps the law biding citizen will risk his own life to save the lives of his Fellow Americans. For this citizen's valor, being mistaken as the real mass shooter when the cops show up.

The cops need to know who is packing, this black green blue red green blue red shiv, just ain't going to cut it.

Now where'd that swill smiley run-oft tuh?
_honorentheos
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Re: Utah Sheriffs: "Won't take our guns without a fight"

Post by _honorentheos »

bcspace wrote:I'll give you another tidbit from Scalia in Heller:

We reach the question, then: Does the preface fit with an operative clause that creates an individual right to keep and bear arms? It fits perfectly, once one knows the history that the founding generation knew and that we have described above. That history showed that the way tyrants had eliminated a militia consisting of all the able-bodied men was not by banning the militia but simply by taking away the people’s arms, enabling a select militia or standing army to suppress political opponents. This is what had occurred in England that prompted codification of the right to have arms in the English Bill of Rights.


This of course is leading up to a defense of the notion that one of the proper purposes of the Second Amendment is for protection against governments. To wit Scalia says regarding the times in 1788 when the Constitution was being argued:

It was understood across the political spectrum [Federalist and anti Federalist] that the right helped to secure the ideal of a citizen militia, which might be necessary to oppose an oppressive military force if the constitutional order broke down.

Unargueably. Yet, as I also quoted, JUSTICE SCALIA acknowledged this in the ruling:

It may be objected that if weapons that are most useful in military service—M-16 rifles and the like—may be banned, then the Second Amendment right is completely detached from the prefatory clause. But as we have said, the conception of the militia at the time of the Second Amendment’s ratification was the body of all citizens capable of military service, who would bring the sorts of lawful weapons that they possessed at home to militia duty. It may well be true today that a militia, to be as effective as militias in the 18th century, would require sophisticated arms that are highly unusual in society at large. Indeed, it may be true that no amount of small arms could be useful against modern-day bombers and (pg. 56) tanks. But the fact that modern developments have limited the degree of fit between the prefatory clause and the protected right cannot change our interpretation of the right.

The question I posed to you is this: where do you take issue with the proposed gun control measures? Try hard to be specific if you can.

And this has to do with a discussion on the 2nd amendment how?


How many armed and law abiding citizens were there on the scene in each case? Where there any rules that discouraged any law abiding citizen from being armed? It has plenty to do with the Second Amendment.

So your argument is that in the case of the Columbine and the Virginia Tech shootings, laws against carrying a gun on a campus abetted the crime? And that this is infringement of the 2nd Amendment?

DC vs. Heller appears to address this.

(pg. 54) Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited. From Blackstone through the 19th-century cases, commentators and courts routinely explained that the right was not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose. For example, the majority of the 19th-century courts to consider the question held that prohibitions on carrying concealed weapons were lawful under the Second Amendment or state analogues.

...

Although we do not undertake an exhaustive historical analysis today of the full scope of the Second Amendment, nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on ... laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings


It's not a 2nd amendment infringement. It's more a security issue. Again, I argue it has to do with culture in general.

There is a term that comes to mind when I think of a society where everyone has to go around armed all the time.
Failed state.


Anyone who knows history would think free state. Of course when you add in warlordism (such as Islam) you get a failed state. But if there is a US-like Constitution that is being upheld, the armed law abiding citizens are in a free state.

That's probably why the Book of Mormon described the utopia of Jaredite society in the end as one where they "sleep upon their swords", huh?

Everyone having to go around armed all of the time?

Failed state.
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Re: Utah Sheriffs: "Won't take our guns without a fight"

Post by _Extra Soup »

So, where is your issue with the proposed gun control initiatives in relation to the ruling in DC vs. Heler? Weapons types restrictions (of which assault-type weapons could be classed), registration of weapons, limitations on where a weapon could be carried and on certain elements of society such as felons and the mentally ill are all addressed. With what are you actually taking issue?


Felons and Mentally Ill, what a crock.... Jarred Laughner was prescribed pills 1 time but wow, when he stopped taking the things he naturally went on a shooting rampage. What a crock, the doctors say these people are all wack job's(as a scape goat) just so the Docs don't find themselves in the middle of a multi-million dollar suit. Those that shouldn't be packing are those that don't know right form wrong or are violent people. Obama talks about reforming the mental health system. He needs to stress helping actual crazy folks and telling those that ain't to go find a f****** straw. Enough of this "he's crazy, no he ain't BS" that lines the doctor's pockets. At the end of the Day where do these shooters end up? In prison for the rest of their lives right were they should be. The real problem is Washington treating Americans like Idiots. Just the idea of this ridiculous law, is grounds for Americans to march on Washington and throw those f****** out! Washington is trying to tell Americans Citizens "Status Dictates Behavior" when people are responsible for their own damn choices always have been and always will be. Anyone who believes "Status Dictates Behavior" needs to be slapped. You can't categorize people in the way which Washington has been doing lately. People are fricken fed up. Don't we live in America?

Unless they're testing the soil, just before the real terrorist attack?
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Re: Utah Sheriffs: "Won't take our guns without a fight"

Post by _Bond James Bond »

Cletus get your shotgun, Seal Team Six is comin'.

by the way did anyone see Zero Dark Thirty? If you do nothing else sneak in and see the last thirty minutes when they do their raid on the Bin Laden compound. Feel free American gun owner to think you'd survive the SWAT tactics of flash bangs and tactical teamwork of that or any special ops group the government can muster if the "guvment" was to come for your guns.
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Re: Utah Sheriffs: "Won't take our guns without a fight"

Post by _lostindc »

Bond James Bond wrote:Cletus get your shotgun, Seal Team Six is comin'.

by the way did anyone see Zero Dark Thirty? If you do nothing else sneak in and see the last thirty minutes when they do their raid on the Bin Laden compound. Feel free American gun owner to think you'd survive the SWAT tactics of flash bangs and tactical teamwork of that or any special ops group the government can muster if the "guvment" was to come for your guns.


Agreed.

There is no way Bishop Smoot/Young/Smith/Jessup/oranyothertypicalmormonlastname are going to survive an actual attack from the gov't. I love that my father-in-law plays army all day yet was more than willing to dodge the draft to serve a mission in oregon. This is very typical of the Mormon side of gun worship. The majority of the LDS gun-lovers want to play army all day yet passed on the opportunity when they had the chance to actual be 'patriotic' and show they are able and prepared.

In addition, in the military, while on domestic soil, one must return their firearm after one finishes duties for the day. One does not take the firearm back to their barracks. You check your gun out and in. It is against regs to have your firearms.
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