John Dehlin update

[_palerobber]

But, Keanu is also a totally sucky actor.

except in the Matrix, in which he was the greatest actor ever.

"I know kung fu."

[_Uther]

ex-mormons are so weird

People are weird.

Sign/

Humans are quite a volatile matter, and adding the layers of inevitable self deception and mental survivalist lies, you have a creature that only appears and behave linear from a distance.

[_Uther]

Hey, I enjoy Matrix as a fun movie. I just don't find it particularly deep.

But, Keanu is also a totally sucky actor.

I found the movies entertaining, but carrying a lot of the same qualities like "the plan of salvation".
In order for the logic to work, you need a few babies on thrones, and a thousand year long period to set everything straight.

[_RockSlider]

can I get a few concise examples of why one should be mad at Dehlin? I thought the core issue causing anger is that Dehlin has decided to go back to Church.

I haven't seen a single person here or anywhere else who has got mad at John for simply choosing to return to the Church. From what I've read and from listening to the podcast I think it's the claim by John that wife swapping, adultery, drug use, divorce, sadness and anger were common at his Mormon Stories events. He says that he saw these happening frequently with exmormons and that without the Church he was tempted to engage in certain activities himself so he chose to close down the Mormon Stories conferences and go back to Church.

I personally think reading this post will explain that perspective more fully and John even liked it. I would recommend listening to the podcast, in particular the second part, and reading this from the beginning, but it really is turning into the never-ending thread. I hope that helps you understand where people who love John, but maybe aren't happy about the way he came across in his most recent offering are coming from.

Thanks,

Hasa Diga Eebowai

This!

Along with in the third hour he basically states there are only two possible ways (in or out)... dishing the middle way (assume this extends to some level of NOMs) saying you need to either be in or out to find resolve and be happy.

This not only could be a betrayal to middleway/nom but is a bit strange as even in this third hour he reveals that his current thinking is way NOM/middle way.

[_Kishkumen]

interesting. i continued to have a dialogue with dehlin long after that breakfast. he invited his wife to join us. he invited his mother in law. he took me into his home and showed me where he produced his podcasts. i said nothing offensive or threatening in front of his kids. he cannot support that assertion. i did a podcast with him after that visit. you have no clue, maybe you are a fogey, or perhaps you are simply just being a jerk.

So, you know that you are the person to whom he is referring. I mean, it is altogether possible that he had omelettes with more than one person who was in the process of leaving the church. Maybe you are simply mistaken about the identity of the person he's referring to.

[_Kishkumen]

Along with in the third hour he basically states there are only two possible ways (in or out)... dishing the middle way (assume this extends to some level of NOMs) saying you need to either be in or out to find resolve and be happy.

This not only could be a betrayal to middleway/nom but is a bit strange as even in this third hour he reveals that his current thinking is way NOM/middle way.

In my view it is pretty clear that, in order to get the spies and weekly interviews to stop, he had to signal very clearly his intention to be loyal to the organization and to be "in." I doubt he suddenly lost his brain and ability to see how everyone has their own take on their faith. Of course, he understands that there is still a middle way, NOMs, and so forth. What he is saying is this:

"I am out of the movement leader business. I have decided it is more of a burden than I want to carry. Some things about it were a little scary. I have not been happy in some ways, and my Mormon faith helps me feel happier. So, I'm done with riding the fence. I'm in."

I think there is a distinction to be drawn here between eschewing his role as the leader of those riding the fence, and his feelings about the necessity of conforming internally to some narrow standard of dogmatic perfection that exists mostly in the minds of people like Bill Hamblin and Lou Midgley. I would seriously doubt that he and many other Mormons accept the rigid ideas of the apologists regarding loyalty and faith.

[Guest]

John Dehlin deserves a great deal of credit for the work he has done, as a self described faithful member of the LDS Church, in pointing out the fact that many of the foundational truth claims of Mormonism are demonstrably false. His approach and work in this area have been the subject of many very long (and long running) threads on several Mormon oriented message boards, and rightly so.

In the years after the fall of communism in Eastern Europe, I had the opportunity to work on a few occasions in the former East Germany, mainly in Leipzig. Since we have family in the former West Germany, I was able to observe the process of re-unification from both sides of the old Iron Curtain and to have in-depth discussions about this process with people I knew. Re-unification was (and continues to be) an emotionally jarring experience for many on both sides.

John Dehlin's reported decision to return to activity in the Mormon Church, and the reasons he gives for this decision, are strong reminders of conversations I had with one particular academic at the University of Leipzig during the 1990's.

This individual was smart and personable and had even been somewhat active in the struggle to throw off the yoke of communism in East Germany. Yet, in several encounters in the decade that followed re-unification, this individual described to me how he missed both the "security" and the shared sacrifice that came with life under communism.

Although he very much liked the freedom to travel and the fact that he could now drive a used BMW instead of an old Tribant, he was not fully at ease with the free market, competition, and capitalism in general. He mentioned several times in our conversations that, while he believed that his children would be much better off under democracy than he had been under communism, he himself often missed the way things were under communism.

He mentioned more than once that some of his associates and family members would be willing to give up their better apartments, better cars, well stocked refrigerators and ability to travel, in exchange for the security of knowing what the future held (even if it was not much), not having the responsibility of making so many difficult decisions, and not having to worry about the possibility that they could somehow fail due to a poor life decision.

Having lived their lives under an Orwellian regime that survived on institutionalized lying and by spying on its citizens, they felt ill equipped to face the real world - the same one that had seemed so attractive to them from behind the Iron Curtain.

John Dehlin has apparently chosen not to continue his journey out of the Church and towards an authentic life. For now anyway, he seems to have chosen to lend his moral and financial support to an Orwellian organization founded on lies and fraud, in exchange for being accepted back into the community in which he grew up.

This seems like an odd choice, given what he has spoken publicly about the absence of authenticity and truthfulness in the LDS Church. But this is his choice (for now anyway).

Once I came to that realization that the LDS Church was a far cry what it claims to be, and was able to extricate myself without damage to my family, the idea of going back was (and is) repugnant.

[_Kishkumen]

John Dehlin has apparently chosen not to continue his journey out of the Church and towards an authentic life.

Authentic is one of the biggest bull crap words on the planet. As subjective as can be.

I am happy for people who seek to, and even modestly achieve, a good life. Each person will decide what that means for her- or himself.

The picture you offer is one of false dichotomies between "true" living and "false" living, whatever that means. Heck, it means whatever it must mean in order to align with your choices and your feelings about those choices.

So, you have concluded that Mormonism is not for you. Great! That in no way means it is not possible for others to live good lives in the LDS Church. The idea of an "authentic" life is the kind of treacly, new age nonsense that should have died in the 70s.

[_LDSToronto]

Listening to the first part of the podcast, I am realizing that I must have not been on a MoSto wavelength like all the folks who feel let down.

I am not hearing the stuff that is so offensive. It's like the omelette thing. I think to myself, being a parent, "yeah! I would have been squirming if some guy started saying colorful stuff around my kids."

Guess I'm an old fogey.

It's been said a few times, Kish - a community of people *that Dehlin built and led* has been abandoned by it's leader, and not just abandoned for anything, but abandoned for the very thing that betrayed that community. Whatever the weaknesses are that brought people to that community are moot; the fact is, Dehlin set himself up as a Hubbard or a Smith or a Moon, and then walked away.

That was a crummy thing to do.

H.

[_DrW]

John Dehlin has apparently chosen not to continue his journey out of the Church and towards an authentic life.

Authentic is one of the biggest bull s*** words on the planet. As subjective as can be.

I am happy for people who seek to, and even modestly achieve, a good life. Each person will decide what that means for her- or himself.

The picture you offer is one of false dichotomies between "true" living and "false" living, whatever that means. Heck, it means whatever it must mean in order to align with your choices and your feelings about those choices.

So, you have concluded that Mormonism is not for you. Great! That in no way means it is not possible for others to live good lives in the LDS Church. The idea of an "authentic" life is the kind of treacly, new age nonsense that should have died in the 70s.

Reverend,

Would it help if I provided a definition of authentic in this context?

What about a life that is as free of doublethink, doublespeak and cog dis as one can make it?

To me, an authentic life means a life wherein one does not have to lie to themselves or others about what they believe. According to this definition, maintaining belief in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary would not be a hallmark of an authentic life.

Do you really believe that John Dehlin will be able to return to full fellowship in the LDS Church without lying to himself or others?

If John Dehlin is now back "in", will he be able to get a temple recommend without disavowing at least some of what he has said about the truth claims of the LDS Church?

Can you imagine John bearing his testimony as to the truthfulness of the Gospel, given what he has stated publicly about the troubling aspects of Church history?

Please do not misunderstand. As mentioned in my post above, I have a great deal of respect for John and I think he has done a great service to many, including my now NOM - soon to be post-mo - wife.

Given what he has done, I am just not sure that an honest return to full fellowship will be possible, even though I have no doubt that both John Dehlin and the Church hierarchy would like nothing more than to claim that this is not only possible, but will eventually be achieved.
__________________________________________

ETA: Is it really possible to know all the facts about the LDS Church and still truly believe?

I claim that it is not. I claim that one who makes such a statement is making a fool of themselves. Perhaps worse, they are attempting to make a fool of anyone to whom they make such a statement.