Sammy Jankins wrote:As far as the Midgley/Dehlin exchange John said he had a video recording of it. I'd be interested to see it. Although if he didn't release it then, I'm sure he won't now.
MormonStories wrote:5) After my panel discussion at UVU, Lou Midgley came up and verbally assaulted me (that's how it felt to me, anyway) -- threatening me and attempting to tie me to the death of a missionary on my mission (Brian Bartholomew), and trying to tie me to Grant Palmer back in 1992 (one of the most bizarre accusations I've ever heard, since it was another decade before I even learned his name). People took pictures and video of the affair (which I have)....which was pretty funny. The interaction, of course, was not funny. Not at all. It was deeply disturbing to me.
I suppose getting in a pissing match with apologists while already dealing with disgruntled ex-Mormons is not in his best interest.
I agree. But I really wish he would release the video and I also wish they'd just publish the "hit piece" on Dehlin. What could possibly be in it that wasn't in Midgley's post above?
I honestly cannot believe that John wants any part of an organization where he's been / being treated and discussed like this. What am I missing here? I'd run as fast and as far away from this as possible and get my kids and wife out too.
Madison54 wrote:I honestly cannot believe that John wants any part of an organization where he's been / being treated and discussed like this. What am I missing here? I'd run as fast and as far away from this as possible and get my kids and wife out too.
How about we agree that John is an adult and can make his own decisions and stop making infantile connections between the behavior (or misbehavior in this case) of certain individuals and any particular religion or organization.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Madison54 wrote: and get my kids and wife out too.
the recklessness in taking his family into that crocodile infested water, makes an exmo party look like church.
how anyone could know all that, experience all that, and consciously soak his children in it, literally, is beyond my comprehension. hell, if i knew someone like that, i would recommend they see a psychotherapist or something.
"Rocks don't speak for themselves" is an unfortunate phrase to use in defense of a book produced by a rock actually 'speaking' for itself... (I have a Question, 5.15.15)
Tobin wrote:]How about we agree that John is an adult and can make his own decisions and stop making infantile connections between the behavior (or misbehavior in this case) of certain individuals and any particular religion or organization.
You know Tobin if you were a big enough deal there is no doubt the alologists would be coming after you and your heretical views as well. Perhaps your bishop would have records of your online postings as well. Honestly I think they'd excommunicate you.
Tobin wrote:]How about we agree that John is an adult and can make his own decisions and stop making infantile connections between the behavior (or misbehavior in this case) of certain individuals and any particular religion or organization.
You know Tobin if you were a big enough deal there is no doubt the alologists would be coming after you and your heretical views as well. Perhaps your bishop would have records of your online postings as well. Honestly I think they'd excommunicate you.
Yeah, I don't think you can last long in SLC Mormonism saying that Joseph Smith couldn't translate Egyptian, that church leaders don't receive revelation from God, that you shouldn't give any tithe money to the church, etc. Your best bet is to just hope they never notice you.
DrW wrote:While I respect John Dehlin, I cannot respect his apparent choice in this. You seem to want to remain subjective when commenting on this issue. That's fine, so long as you recognize the objective reality that most of the foundational truth claims of the LDS Church are demonstrable false. Anyone who knows that, and yet returns to, or continues support of, the LDS Church, is making an informed choice to condone institutional lying.
I think John is worn out, burned out, and is a lot more distressed than he orates. And I think he has observed that there is a real and lasting disconnect between his logical resoning, and his emotional life. In this state of being burned out, I think he has let go of the logical side and is now trying to heal the emotional part. Not based on logic, but on underlying emotions. And I think that is ok.
John doesn't need more pounding now while he is down.
About Joseph Smith.. How do you think his persona was influenced by being the storyteller since childhood? Mastering the art of going pale, changing his voice, and mesmerizing his audience.. How do you think he was influenced by keeping secrets and lying for his wife and the church members for decades?
And that, if he bothered to read what those who he denigrates as apologists have written, he would realize that the Book of Mormon is on solid ground, and the Book of Abraham is not nonsense. It simply cannot be the case that people leave the Church because of what they learn from FAIR or the Maxwell Institute.
I can read Lou, and I have read it all. Heck, I was even an dues-paying member of FARMS for several years. Your arguments are only appear strong to you because you already know "the truth."
I have read through midgley's, dehlin's, peterson's, and shriver's comments.
a pox on all their houses. Much ado about nothing at this point.
I think of Haldir's comments in the Lord of the Rings, when the Fellowship was complaining about being blindfolded in the Lothlorien forest:
J.R.R. Tolkien wrote:"Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed is nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him."
Tobin wrote:]How about we agree that John is an adult and can make his own decisions and stop making infantile connections between the behavior (or misbehavior in this case) of certain individuals and any particular religion or organization.
You know Tobin if you were a big enough deal there is no doubt the alologists would be coming after you and your heretical views as well. Also perhaps your bishop would have records of your online postings as well. Honestly I think they'd excommunicate you.
They are welcome to come after me any time they want. But I think when confronted with the message that one should speak with God and determine the truth from him, they may come into agreement with me and avoid such nastiness. Even if such a proceeding ever occurred, I would stand up for the truth, provide my sources and why I believe what I do, and invite them to humbly pray to God with me for the right answer. I believe when confronted in such a way, the best response is with the truth, love, and acceptance.
And I don't think my views are that unique. I've met plenty of Mormons online that share similar views to my own. I think the problem occurs when you stop believing in God and believe you have all the answers. I will always be an advocate that each person (critic or supporter or anywhere inbetween) speak with God to determine the truth for themselves. I'm certainly a fallible person and have made and will make plenty of mistakes, but I do know there is a God and by believing and following God we can come to a knowledge of the truth.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom