Why It Matters Not

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
_why me
_Emeritus
Posts: 9589
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:19 pm

Re: Why It Matters Not

Post by _why me »

Kishkumen wrote:
No, I don't think that is true at all. What is really the case is that the LDS Church's failures to educate their own members appropriately and adequately has resulted in a great swell of disaffection in the internet age, of which Mormon Stories was only an epiphenomenon. But, I get it; you, like many other good LDS people, are incapable of seeing that the Church might be responsible for anything going wrong,


What church educates its members to cope with the anti-religious information on the Internet or about negative interpretations of their own church? I see no great historical interpretations of a church that comes from that church. What I do see are various interpretations of history from many sources but not written officially by a particular church.

So, the bigger question is: why do lds give up all their spiritual experiences they had in the lds church because of a website or a critical book written by a mere mortal? Now that is the bigger question.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
_Yoda

Re: Why It Matters Not

Post by _Yoda »

Hasa Diga Eebowai wrote:I'm deleting my response because I really liked this post and I don't want to take away from that by responding to a sideshow that has already been dealt with eloquently in my opinion.

Thanks,

Hasa Diga Eebowai

So.. Will you please share your post on a separate thread? Pretty please?
_Bazooka
_Emeritus
Posts: 10719
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:36 am

Re: Why It Matters Not

Post by _Bazooka »

GR33N wrote:And how many are here because they claim to have lost their faith but can't help the desire to stay in the loop as it were just in case they decide to discover that the truth is contained in the gospel of Jesus Christ as presented by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and therefore think they can jump back in the pool at the last second to claim salvation?


I thought Christ's sacrifice and the doctrine of the Church is that it's never too late to repent and be saved.
Are you saying there comes a point in this life when the Church will not allow people to repent and be saved?
If you are, what is that point at which one can no longer 'apply' for repentance?
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
_Kishkumen
_Emeritus
Posts: 21373
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:00 pm

Re: Why It Matters Not

Post by _Kishkumen »

why me wrote:What church educates its members to cope with the anti-religious information on the Internet or about negative interpretations of their own church? I see no great historical interpretations of a church that comes from that church. What I do see are various interpretations of history from many sources but not written officially by a particular church.

So, the bigger question is: why do lds give up all their spiritual experiences they had in the lds church because of a website or a critical book written by a mere mortal? Now that is the bigger question.


No, why me, that is not the bigger question. That is the same tired question that the Church keeps asking itself to no avail. You see, having eschewed the fancy pants learnin' of the "doctors" long ago, Mormonism, unlike the Church you actually attend, abandoned the intellectual underpinnings that provide some kind of satisfactory grounding to its discourse. For all his brilliance, Joseph Smith was a rube in this area, and he accepted the usual anti-Catholic propaganda of his day. He founded his faith on a different tradition, and, unfortunately for him and his Church, his tradition ended up being as maligned and hated by mainstream Protestantism as Catholicism was.

So, the great irony is that leaders of his own Church ignorantly attacked the traditions that underlay the faith he built, with the result that Mormonism was intellectually orphaned. So, yes, the Spirit is there in spades. No doubt, but it has no context to make it look like anything other than weird. And, the apologists, especially guys like Lou "Woody" Midgley and "Wild Bill" Hamblin, attack vehemently any honest discussion of the traditions that did inform Joseph Smith, a man swimming in frontier Hermeticism, magic, and Freemasonry.

Oh, I get why they do. Because they know where they live. They live in a land awash in Protestant bigotry, ignorance, and fear regarding the above things. (This is not a knock on Protestantism per se, but a recognition of some of the particular factors that motivate Mopologists to fight against works like Brooke's Refiner's Fire and Quinn's EMMWV.) Everyone understands on some level (subconscious fear being one of them), and I can tell you Nibley sure as hell did, that Mormonism was in debt to the Hermetic tradition. The only disagreement would be over how that relationship works. Unfortunately, modern ignoramus Protestants have successfully branded all of this kind of thing as "Satanic," so no one who seeks respectability will touch it with a ten foot pole.

Kerry Shirts and Joe Steve Swick III are notable exceptions, but they are marginalized thereby. Indeed, though I love these guys, they will probably not make a direct contribution to repairing this situation.

In any case, without any grounding in its own intellectual tradition, it is all too easy for Mormons to be convinced, given the pull of Protestant bigotry, that Mormonism is simply weird, nonsensical, and perhaps even demon inspired. What Mormonism needs to counter that is a discourse that draws back the veil of mystery from sheer ignorance covering over its intellectual foundations, so that it once again makes some sense. I don't see that happening soon enough, but I have hope.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_DrW
_Emeritus
Posts: 7222
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 2:57 am

Re: Why It Matters Not

Post by _DrW »

GR33N wrote:
And how many are here because they claim to have lost their faith but can't help the desire to stay in the loop as it were just in case they decide to discover that the truth is contained in the gospel of Jesus Christ as presented by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and therefore think they can jump back in the pool at the last second to claim salvation?


None that I can think of.

(This has to be one of the most delusional assertions I have even seen on this board. And that is saying a lot.)
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
_Bazooka
_Emeritus
Posts: 10719
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:36 am

Re: Why It Matters Not

Post by _Bazooka »

DrW wrote:
GR33N wrote:
And how many are here because they claim to have lost their faith but can't help the desire to stay in the loop as it were just in case they decide to discover that the truth is contained in the gospel of Jesus Christ as presented by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and therefore think they can jump back in the pool at the last second to claim salvation?


None that I can think of.

(This has to be one of the most delusional assertions I have even seen on this board. And that is saying a lot.)


Yes, Gr33n seems to be dealing with some personal internal angst who is keen to offset it by questioning others integrity.
That said, I am looking forward to his/her response to my question above as he/she seems to be at odds with official Mormon doctrine.
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
_Yoda

Re: Why It Matters Not

Post by _Yoda »

Gr33n wrote:And how many are here because they claim to have lost their faith but can't help the desire to stay in the loop as it were just in case they decide to discover that the truth is contained in the gospel of Jesus Christ as presented by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and therefore think they can jump back in the pool at the last second to claim salvation?


If that is their goal, this would be the wrong board to use.
_sock puppet
_Emeritus
Posts: 17063
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 2:52 pm

Re: Why It Matters Not

Post by _sock puppet »

liz3564 wrote:
Gr33n wrote:And how many are here because they claim to have lost their faith but can't help the desire to stay in the loop as it were just in case they decide to discover that the truth is contained in the gospel of Jesus Christ as presented by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and therefore think they can jump back in the pool at the last second to claim salvation?


If that is their goal, this would be the wrong board to use.

Which boards can one gain salvation using? :cool:
_Yoda

Re: Why It Matters Not

Post by _Yoda »

Sock Puppet wrote:Which boards can one gain salvation using?


None. That's my point. LOL

I suppose that http://www.lds.org would be the best Internet resource for someone who wanted to maintain the faith.
_GR33N
_Emeritus
Posts: 261
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: Why It Matters Not

Post by _GR33N »

Bazooka wrote:
GR33N wrote:And how many are here because they claim to have lost their faith but can't help the desire to stay in the loop as it were just in case they decide to discover that the truth is contained in the gospel of Jesus Christ as presented by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and therefore think they can jump back in the pool at the last second to claim salvation?


I thought Christ's sacrifice and the doctrine of the Church is that it's never too late to repent and be saved.
Are you saying there comes a point in this life when the Church will not allow people to repent and be saved?
If you are, what is that point at which one can no longer 'apply' for repentance?


I am saying there will come a point in everyone's life that it may be too late to repent. That time is between the sinner and the Lord.

Alma 34

31 Yea, I would that ye would come forth and harden not your hearts any longer; for behold, now is the time and the day of your salvation; and therefore, if ye will repent and harden not your hearts, immediately shall the great plan of redemption be brought about unto you.

32 For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.

33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.

34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.

35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.
Then saith He to Thomas... be not faithless, but believing. - John 20:27
Post Reply