New John Dehlin Video Posted To Dispel Any Misunderstandings

[_Jason Bourne]

In the video, John claims that his presentation has been given to folks at the "highest levels" in the Church.

The question is; what are they to do about it? Even though John does not say as much, all of the problems to which he refers do not arise from mere misunderstandings.

They arise as a result of institutional lying that has taken place over nearly two centuries.

Yes I was aware that they have had a look. But I wonder how seriously they take it. We know Marlin Jensen took it seriously. I think it was likely Jeffrey Holland who is the apostle that met with Dehlin twice. In fact I am certain because I know the GC talk that John found so disappointing because of how strident it was came from Holland right at the time John is talking to him. That talk was pretty disappointing in the NOM communities online.

My guess is some of the 12 and FP will take it seriously and others will retrench. But who knows.

His graphic showing a roll-off in active membership in the Church since 2006 tells the story.

To me, it looks like the LDS Church will be engaged in a rear guard action from here on in.

Indeed. While I am still in I am certainly at least a partial casualty in all this. I would guess you are as well though I do not know the timing of your disaffection. Personally, and this not to boast, I do meet the category of a highly committed member, well educated, high income earner, held every leadership calling you can hold in a ward including bishop and many stake callings too.

The odd thing for me though is I was aware of at least 80% of the sticky issues for some time. I was a hobby apologist. I don't know what triggered where I am but I do recall the day vividly where I realized that all was not a well in Zion as I had thought it was. You know there is a theory that some apologists at least are doing apologetics to keep their own faith intact. Perhaps that was true to some extent for me and it stopped working.

[_DrW]

In the video, John claims that his presentation has been given to folks at the "highest levels" in the Church.

The question is; what are they to do about it? Even though John does not say as much, all of the problems to which he refers do not arise from mere misunderstandings.

They arise as a result of institutional lying that has taken place over nearly two centuries.

Yes I was aware that they have had a look. But I wonder how seriously they take it. We know Marlin Jensen took it seriously. I think it was likely Jeffrey Holland who is the apostle that met with Dehlin twice. In fact I am certain because I know the GC talk that John found so disappointing because of how strident it was came from Holland right at the time John is talking to him. That talk was pretty disappointing in the NOM communities online.

My guess is some of the 12 and FP will take it seriously and others will retrench. But who knows.

His graphic showing a roll-off in active membership in the Church since 2006 tells the story.

To me, it looks like the LDS Church will be engaged in a rear guard action from here on in.

Indeed. While I am still in I am certainly at least a partial casualty in all this. I would guess you are as well though I do not know the timing of your disaffection. Personally, and this not to boast, I do meet the category of a highly committed member, well educated, high income earner, held every leadership calling you can hold in a ward including bishop and many stake callings too.

The odd thing for me though is I was aware of at least 80% of the sticky issues for some time. I was a hobby apologist. I don't know what triggered where I am but I do recall the day vividly where I realized that all was not a well in Zion as I had thought it was. You know there is a theory that some apologists at least are doing apologetics to keep their own faith intact. Perhaps that was true to some extent for me and it stopped working.

Although I guess that I would fit in the same general demographic as you, I don't envy your position as a doubting respected member with high Church callings on your resume.

As to my disaffection, I am what you could call a slow learner. I started having doubts in seminary class in high school, but stayed active, joined the Marine Corps instead of going on a mission, and was eventually married in the temple.

My complete split from the Church likely resulted from several extended assignments overseas. When I would come back and attend meetings in my home ward, it would just seem all so silly. At one point my Bishop, noting my flagging enthusiasm, called me in for an interview, and I treated him to a reality check with both barrels. I can honestly say that at the end of that interview, he was quite shaken.

My wife and children (who still lived at home) came with me on the next extended overseas assignment. We all learned the importance of "family first" on these adventures. My kids, all of whom are TBM with doubts, respect my position as to the Church because they know what I know about the Church and have experienced what I experienced.

[_Cicero]

Yes I was aware that they have had a look. But I wonder how seriously they take it. We know Marlin Jensen took it seriously. I think it was likely Jeffrey Holland who is the apostle that met with Dehlin twice. In fact I am certain because I know the GC talk that John found so disappointing because of how strident it was came from Holland right at the time John is talking to him. That talk was pretty disappointing in the NOM communities online.

My guess is some of the 12 and FP will take it seriously and others will retrench. But who knows.

Jason: I agree about Elder Jensen, but I do get the sense that he represents the minority position among GAs. Based on the rather strident remarks from Elders Holland, Cook and Andersen at the last general conference, I don't see most of them changing their tune anytime soon.

[_Polygamy-Porter]

What a pitiful place to be.

Had John's family and his inlaws applied the points of his presentation to John choosing to leave LDS Inc, then John would not be forced into such public humiliation and declaring himself a "reconstructed" believer.

In other words he felt forced into this by family and close "friends".

For cripessakes, his brother Joel was the Chief Technology Officer of LDS Inc for many years! Talk about pressure!

I say tit for tat. If they judge you for leaving, then goddamit judge them for being foolish cowards for remaining in that miserable abyss.

I made a choice to live MY life for ME.

[_DrW]

What a pitiful place to be.

Had John's family and his inlaws applied the points of his presentation to John choosing to leave LDS Inc, then John would not be forced into such public humiliation and declaring himself a "reconstructed" believer.

In other words he felt forced into this by family and close "friends".

For cripessakes, his brother Joel was the Chief Technology Officer of LDS Inc for many years! Talk about pressure!

I say tit for tat. If they judge you for leaving, then goddamit judge them for being foolish cowards for remaining in that miserable abyss.

I made a choice to live MY life for ME.

"Pressure" was exactly what I was thinking as John took time to describe specifically, and in some detail, a long list of what most would consider damning (and in aggregate fatal) evidence against LDS foundational truth claims.

As he finished his presentation and stated that he had found a way to remain in the Church, it seemed clear to me that he must be bowing to pressure. I cannot, for the life of me, understand how anyone who knows what he obviously knows (and understands) could possibly support the LDS Church in any way. The cog dis must be oozing from every pore in his body.

[Guest]

"Pressure" was exactly what I was thinking as John took time to describe specifically, and in some detail, a long list of what most would consider damning (and in aggregate fatal) evidence against LDS foundational truth claims.

As he finished his presentation and stated that he had found a way to remain in the Church, it seemed clear to me that he must be bowing to pressure. I cannot, for the life of me, understand how anyone who knows what he obviously knows (and understands) could possibly support the LDS Church in any way. The cog dis must be oozing from every pore in his body.

Tinfoil hats can cause baldness as well lol

50 bucks says he will not last more than six months in the chapel.

Poor guy.

Yet, this demonstrates what I think keeps MANY would be defectors and probably many online defenders in the Mormon cult.

They all have a specific reason to remain in, and some are required to prove it with physical evidence(e.g. sporting the chapels chaps and holding down a pew).

[_Nightlion]

Dehlin describes those involved at FAIR and NAMIRS as

• "lots of good people"
• "their heart is in the right plance"
• they "do a lot of good work".

Urban Dictionary: plance
www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=plance - Cached - Similar
to play around while dancing, not exactly showing one's true dancing skills.
Usually to music that has well defined beats. Play + Dance = Plance.

I looked this up thinking you were not simply making a typo but more a subliminal statement. One with which I fully concur. Those clowns are just playing around fast and loose. They do not give a rat's behind about truth and getting their steps right.

[_sock puppet]

Dehlin describes those involved at FAIR and NAMIRS as

• "lots of good people"
• "their heart is in the right plance"
• they "do a lot of good work".

Urban Dictionary: plance
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=plance - Cached - Similar
to play around while dancing, not exactly showing one's true dancing skills.
Usually to music that has well defined beats. Play + Dance = Plance.

I looked this up thinking you were not simply making a typo but more a subliminal statement. One with which I fully concur. Those clowns are just playing around fast and loose. They do not give a rat's behind about truth and getting their steps right.

Are you suggesting Freud was at the keyboard?

[_why me]

I think it is obvious that they ought to start paying attention to Dehlin a wee bit. Their revelations from God certainly hasn't solved much of the problem of members leaving in droves now has it? The leadership appears to be more media savvy than person savvy. Image though, will only get you so far.

I wouldn't say that members are leaving in droves. This has been announced on exmormon and postmormon boards for years now and if these facts were true, the church would be empty right now.

[_why me]

This is the first time I have seen any data claiming that activate membership numbers are already falling. I wonder how accurate it is?

I think that following lds standards is not easy these days. The ways of the world are in the opposite direction. Tough to swim upstream. Also, if the lds church is the true church, satan would work overtime in attempting to destroy it and harm its members. But how accurate is it? Who knows.

But to assume that people leave because of history or Joseph Smith would be untrue.

But here is a fact: the Book of Mormon has not been proven untrue. And none of the 11 witnesses retracted their testimonies, not even on their deathbed where many confirmed their testimony. And what happened to the 8 witnesses was more than just a showing and a handling of plates. They must have had a deep spiritual experience since on their deathbed, they gave a very spiritual testimony of the event.

Now if members would stick to the basics, they would have no problems.