madeleine wrote:A mikveh is not the only method of purification by water. It is just one.
Ezekiel 36:25
I will sprinkle clean water over you to make you clean; from all your impurities and from all your idols I will cleanse you.
What strikes me about the mikveh is that it seems to be done over and over and over again (Dave Clark Five), but baptism is done only once. So the purpose of the mikveh and the purpose of Christian baptism don't really seem to have much to do with each other. Perhaps comparing them doesn't really make much sense.
The comparison of Christian baptism to Jewish circumcision is the more usual comparison.
But I agree, many religions, not just Christian and Jews, have cleansing rituals. To apply the meaning of one to the other, never makes sense.
Being a Christian is not the result of an ethical choice or a lofty idea, but the encounter with an event, a person, which gives life a new horizon and a decisive direction -Pope Benedict XVI
BartBurk wrote: What strikes me about the mikveh is that it seems to be done over and over and over again (Dave Clark Five), but baptism is done only once. So the purpose of the mikveh and the purpose of Christian baptism don't really seem to have much to do with each other. Perhaps comparing them doesn't really make much sense.
A moment of silence for the 'Dave Clark Five'. Rick Huxley has died at 72 (seventy two?! I'm feeling very old).
Here's a quote from one of the very many websites discussing the history of baptism:
Originally Baptism was a purification ritual adapted from the Jewish faith and performed by the priests at the temple to make someone who was deemed as unclean back into being clean and presentable in the eyes of God. This could be from touching an unclean person, the dealing with the dead or diseased, being with a woman during menstruation, or any number of other things that the Torah had determined as ‘unclean’. The ritual had the person being cleansed bringing the appropriate offering, such as doves, lambs, or sometimes simply just grains, to the priest and having the priest say the appropriate words to God before ‘washing’ the unclean person in the waters, oils, and/or perfumes at the temple. This procedure was symbolic of the uncleanliness going from the person to the water, therefore allowing the person being baptized to enter the Temple for worship on Saturday as the holy day.
Both Jesus and John the Baptist were Jewish. It makes very good sense to me.
The thing is, from a Christian POV, Jesus pulled everything Jewish into a new context: Himself. Baptism is a cleansing ritual, for Jews and Christians, but there is a large difference because Jews are fulfilling the law, Christians believe Jesus' fulfilled the law. Both John the Baptist and Jesus knew they were doing something different than adhering to one of the mitvahs.
Being a Christian is not the result of an ethical choice or a lofty idea, but the encounter with an event, a person, which gives life a new horizon and a decisive direction -Pope Benedict XVI
The larger protestant Christian position is that cleansing takes place by the Spirit...baptism is the outward and public demonstration of what has already taken place by the regeneration through the Spirit and signifies the new life that should take place from the point on. In and of itself baptismal water, which symbolically cleans only the outward body has no power to wash away sin. It is a meaningless exercise if there is no "heart" change in the one being baptized.
madeleine wrote:The thing is, from a Christian POV, Jesus pulled everything Jewish into a new context: Himself. Baptism is a cleansing ritual, for Jews and Christians, but there is a large difference because Jews are fulfilling the law, Christians believe Jesus' fulfilled the law. Both John the Baptist and Jesus knew they were doing something different than adhering to one of the mitvahs.
I feel I should start by saying that I like you a lot, madeleine and I appreciate your opinion on these matters.
As an agnostic, I tend to see these matters in a more historical way. I think if you had a chance to ask Jesus what religion he belonged to, he would say Jewish.
I feel pretty sure that the baptisms talked about in the New Testament were a version of baptisms talked about in the Old Testament.
This, or any other post that I have made or will make in the future, is strictly my own opinion and consequently of little or no value.
"Faith is believing something you know ain't true" Twain.
madeleine wrote:The thing is, from a Christian POV, Jesus pulled everything Jewish into a new context: Himself. Baptism is a cleansing ritual, for Jews and Christians, but there is a large difference because Jews are fulfilling the law, Christians believe Jesus' fulfilled the law. Both John the Baptist and Jesus knew they were doing something different than adhering to one of the mitvahs.
I feel I should start by saying that I like you a lot, madeleine and I appreciate your opinion on these matters.
As an agnostic, I tend to see these matters in a more historical way. I think if you had a chance to ask Jesus what religion he belonged to, he would say Jewish.
I feel pretty sure that the baptisms talked about in the New Testament were a version of baptisms talked about in the Old Testament.
Thanks for the kind words.
Yes, Jesus was Jewish, but that isn't the whole of who he is. His baptism is understood in his whole person. No Jew would ever teach to baptize in the name of the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Being a Christian is not the result of an ethical choice or a lofty idea, but the encounter with an event, a person, which gives life a new horizon and a decisive direction -Pope Benedict XVI
Egyptians made a brick out of filth/muck washed off the pharaohs - then put it under their head in the grave.
Is it urban legend or a symbol of the writer? I don't care, it sounds allegoric.
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco - To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
To assess what is Jewish and what is Christian and what is both and what is neither is almost impossible. Like the LDS today have no clue about the restored gospel in deed. They only THINK they do according to the fashion of the day which are mere FORMS of godliness and do not partake of the power thereof.
Like Jesus questioned the learned Nicodemus how is it he was a master in Israel and did not understand being truly born of God. The Old Testament is full of it. They called it to KNOW THE LORD. And to be counted among the prophets.
What a Mormon thinks about becoming a god is just plain stupid. Yet they go about spouting the expectation ignoring all scripture that plainly tells them it is strong delusion and that they are believing a lie. This is always the case with true religion vs. everything else.
The scholars give more weight to the fools because they cannot discern the truth.
