pure Mormonism

[_ludwigm]

This Japanese restaurant ...
"Order a 'tsukko meshi', a bowl of rice piled high with as much salmon roe as you want -- only if you agree to leave not even one grain of rice in your bowl."



GBH about First Vision
"Well, it's either true or false. If it's false, we're engaged in a great fraud. If it's true, it's the most important thing in the world. Now, that's the whole picture. It is either right or wrong, true or false, fraudulent or true."

[_DrW]

When I read these black or white, all or none, true or false statements from prophets of the LDS Church, I can't help but think they are tipping their hand in a way.

They must know that any rational person would conclude that all of the LDS truth claims cannot be true, if for no other reason than the simple fact that LDS Truth Claims, even as embodied in LDS canonized scripture, are internally inconsistent and self-contradictory.

Since this is absolutely self-evident, are these prophets actually providing a justified way out for members who are intellectually honest?

To me they are (perhaps unintentionally) saying, "Okay, if you are gullible enough to believe all of the LDS truth claims, in spite of all of the evidence to the contrary, then you should stay in the Church. If you are not so gullible, then you are justified in leaving because (according to the all or none model) the Church is not true."

[_zeezrom]

Great comparison

[_wayfarer]

When I read these black or white, all or none, true or false statements from prophets of the LDS Church, I can't help but think they are tipping their hand in a way.

They must know that any rational person would conclude that all of the LDS truth claims cannot be true, if for no other reason than the simple fact that LDS Truth Claims, even as embodied in LDS canonized scripture, are internally inconsistent and self-contradictory.

Since this is absolutely self-evident, are these prophets actually providing a justified way out for members who are intellectually honest?

To me they are (perhaps unintentionally) saying, "Okay, if you are gullible enough to believe all of the LDS truth claims, in spite of all of the evidence to the contrary, then you should stay in the Church. If you are not so gullible, then you are justified in leaving because (according to the all or none model) the Church is not true."

While I would love to accept that the LDS leadership is so cynical as to intend what you imply, i don't think that is their intent.

GBH may be the single most important and influential prophet of the church since Brigham Young. He was always the guy behind the PR campaign of the Church from the times of the earliest radio programs to the pograms of academia in the 80s and 90s when he ran the church first as couselor to a failing SWK, then to a dotard ETB.

His plan was to first eliminate any noise in the LDS message by creating a pablum message, then he eliminated the thoughtful voices in dissent (September 1993), then he moved to the all or nothing position: you are either with me or against me (April 2003). Having secured the loyalty of the core true-believing members, he went on to villify those who were undesireables: the gays, feminists, and intellectuals (PoF, Prop8). Such villification is part of what people in power aften do: playing to the fears and bigotry of the core, the Church of Public Relations can create unity amongst the core believers by intilling fear and loathing in the otherness of the villified.

it is ever so and ever will be. that is why Thomas Jefferson said, "I have sworn on the altar of god eternal hostility against all forms of tyranny over the mind if man."

[_zeezrom]

While I would love to accept that the LDS leadership is so cynical as to intend what you imply, i don't think that is their intent.

But I don't think people usually intend on tipping their hands in card games like this. It may not have been GBH's intent but it may still be as DrW describes.

[_sethpayne]

When I read these black or white, all or none, true or false statements from prophets of the LDS Church, I can't help but think they are tipping their hand in a way.

They must know that any rational person would conclude that all of the LDS truth claims cannot be true, if for no other reason than the simple fact that LDS Truth Claims, even as embodied in LDS canonized scripture, are internally inconsistent and self-contradictory.

Since this is absolutely self-evident, are these prophets actually providing a justified way out for members who are intellectually honest?

To me they are (perhaps unintentionally) saying, "Okay, if you are gullible enough to believe all of the LDS truth claims, in spite of all of the evidence to the contrary, then you should stay in the Church. If you are not so gullible, then you are justified in leaving because (according to the all or none model) the Church is not true."

DrW,

I agree that the black/white dichotomy presented by GBH is awful but this post is nearly 100% BS.

Am I not a rational person because I choose to participate in the LDS community? Because I choose to believe in God? Am I unintelligent, intellectually dishonest, and gullible? In this post you have labeled me, and my the majority of my family and extended family as stupid morons who just aren't as smart or enlightened as you are.

I have news for you. I know some who could crush you in any discussion of Mormon history, doctrine, etc.... and yet they choose to be Mormon and their beliefs take many forms. They know all the facts but choose to live their lives as Mormons.

The irony, of course, is that in this post you are claiming that others are unintelligent and irrational and yet, by so doing you are elevating your own views/experience to the level of absolute truth. So it seems to me that you have employed at least a couple of logical fallacies:

Argument from Personal Incredulity -- you have a disdain for Mormon beliefs therefore everyone else should too. If they don't, they are stupid and gullible.

False Continuum -- you criticize the black/white dichotomy and then engage it as being true.

No True Scotsman -- no intelligent person would every choose to accept Mormonism.

Have a little respect for your fellow human beings and step back from your radical naturalism which you seem to have embraced with fundamentalist, and perhaps even religious, fervor. "All other viewpoints are wrong and the people who don't think like me are unintelligent." *sigh*

Seth

[_zeezrom]

But wait. I took DrW as simply saying GBH accidentally presented the world with a black/white choice.

[_Blixa]

But wait. I took DrW as simply saying GBH accidentally presented the world with a black/white choice.

I think he is arguing that it is possibly somewhat deliberate, although his phrasing is ambiguous. "Tipping one's hand" is usually accidental, though it could be a move of extreme cynicism. DrW also says "They must know" what is "self evident" and so are "perhaps unintentionally [but perhaps intentionally] saying."

I agree that the "tipping their hand" phrase sounds like it supports something accidental, but I think DrW is arguing something more potentially cynical on the part of the prophets. Of course, I am also reading it this way because it fits with what I've read from DrW in the past.

[_DrW]

When I read these black or white, all or none, true or false statements from prophets of the LDS Church, I can't help but think they are tipping their hand in a way.

They must know that any rational person would conclude that all of the LDS truth claims cannot be true, if for no other reason than the simple fact that LDS Truth Claims, even as embodied in LDS canonized scripture, are internally inconsistent and self-contradictory.

Since this is absolutely self-evident, are these prophets actually providing a justified way out for members who are intellectually honest?

To me they are (perhaps unintentionally) saying, "Okay, if you are gullible enough to believe all of the LDS truth claims, in spite of all of the evidence to the contrary, then you should stay in the Church. If you are not so gullible, then you are justified in leaving because (according to the all or none model) the Church is not true."

DrW,

I agree that the black/white dichotomy presented by GBH is awful but this post is nearly 100% BS.

Am I not a rational person because I choose to participate in the LDS community? Because I choose to believe in God? Am I unintelligent, intellectually dishonest, and gullible? In this post you have labeled me, and my the majority of my family and extended family as stupid morons who just aren't as smart or enlightened as you are.

I have news for you. I know some who could crush you in any discussion of Mormon history, doctrine, etc.... and yet they choose to be Mormon and their beliefs take many forms. They know all the facts but choose to live their lives as Mormons.

The irony, of course, is that in this post you are claiming that others are unintelligent and irrational and yet, by so doing you are elevating your own views/experience to the level of absolute truth. So it seems to me that you have employed at least a couple of logical fallacies:

Argument from Personal Incredulity -- you have a disdain for Mormon beliefs therefore everyone else should too. If they don't, they are stupid and gullible.

False Continuum -- you criticize the black/white dichotomy and then engage it as being true.

No True Scotsman -- no intelligent person would every choose to accept Mormonism.

Have a little respect for your fellow human beings and step back from your radical naturalism which you seem to have embraced with fundamentalist, and perhaps even religious, fervor. "All other viewpoints are wrong and the people who don't think like me are unintelligent." *sigh*

Seth

Seth,

Sorry if my response to Ludwigm offended you. That was not my intent. In re-reading my post, I could have certainly worded things a bit more carefully.

Over on Kishkumen's "Hamblin is just trying to understand" thread, I posted a response to Wayfarer that supports the point I was trying to make here. If you would care to read that post, I would appreciate it.

Am I not a rational person because I choose to participate in the LDS community?

I did not say that. My children and grandchildren participate in the LDS community, and I do not think they are irrational. My wife participates in the LDS community, in fact she is doing her VT as I write this. However, she does not believe in all of the truth claims of the LDS Church. In fact, she believes in very few of them. And, as is the case in many marriages, I suspect, my wife is a lot smarter than I am.

Because I choose to believe in God? Am I unintelligent, intellectually dishonest, and gullible?

I didn't say that either.

In this post you have labeled me, and my the majority of my family and extended family as stupid morons who just aren't as smart or enlightened as you are.

Please see my response above regarding my wife and family.

I have news for you. I know some who could crush you in any discussion of Mormon history, doctrine, etc.... and yet they choose to be Mormon and their beliefs take many forms. They know all the facts but choose to live their lives as Mormons.

You are clearly missing the point here. While there are certainly people (and plenty of them) who know more about Mormon history and scripture that I do, this does not mean that what they know, or believe they know, represents fact.

If they say they believe that there was a global flood of Noah, as stated in the Book of Mormon, then they hold a false belief. The global flood of Noah is not a fact.

Neither are dozens (if not hundreds) of other truth claims of the LDS Church and LDS scripture. The Book of Abraham was certainly not written "by the hand of Abraham" upon the papyri as claimed by Joseph Smith, for example.

If one chooses to believe that these things are true, fine. But that person hold false beliefs, by any reasonable standard.

The irony, of course, is that in this post you are claiming that others are unintelligent and irrational and yet, by so doing you are elevating your own views/experience to the level of absolute truth. So it seems to me that you have employed at least a couple of logical fallacies:

Argument from Personal Incredulity -- you have a disdain for Mormon beliefs therefore everyone else should too. If they don't, they are stupid and gullible.

Many Mormon truth claims can be falsified, plain and simple. The truth claim that the Book of Abraham was translated as Joseph Smith claimed is but one example. If you do not accept that, I am sorry. By not acknowledging that fact, you stand in clear opposition to logic, science, and objective reality itself. It is certainly your right to do so.

False Continuum -- you criticize the black/white dichotomy and then engage it as being true.

What I stated very clearly was that, according to the standard set by GBH himself, since many truth claims of the LDS Church were not true, the LDS Church could not be true. That much should be self evident.

No True Scotsman -- no intelligent person would every choose to accept Mormonism.

Wrong again. What I said is that if one took GBH at his word, it would not be possible to believe in Mormonism (because at least some of the LDS foundational truth claims are false). That does not mean that one cannot accept Mormonism and be a member of the LDS community. You yourself stated that the GBH all or none characterization of LDS truth claims was bs. I am just agreeing with you.

Have a little respect for your fellow human beings and step back from your radical naturalism which you seem to have embraced with fundamentalist, and perhaps even religious, fervor.

What you call radical naturalism, I would simply call science. Absence of belief in a deity, when there is absolutely no objective evidence that said deity exists, is not religious fervor. It is just the opposite, is is simply absence of belief.

"All other viewpoints are wrong and the people who don't think like me are unintelligent." *sigh*

Again, Seth, I did not say this, or anything like it.

[_ludwigm]

As I've said a few times - as far as I remember - I was investigator for six year. Good enough to learn everything as insider.

When I had doubts or objections (without them I would have been baptized after one month) the answer always was that one should not sort out what to believe and what not.

The all or none approach does exist everywhere, not only on the prophets' level. Among others, this made my joining out of the question.

Totalitarianism can be dangerous.
We know the examples. Totalitarianism makes faithful, good people to say "If God tells His people to enter into a new land and kill every native man woman and child then killing every man woman and child is the right thing to do."

It is not necessary to mention this extremities.
If there is a system, working someway, and it is forbidden to notice any error - our system is errorless because it is our system - then the errors never will be fixed. And this is as perilous policy for radars as for churches.