Spiritual witnesses and plural marriage

[_Stormy Waters]

Sometimes in the defense of Joseph Smith's polygamy you hear apologists appeal to the spiritual witness that some of the wives experienced. In his book, Richard Bushman says this, "The revulsion the women felt at first made the subsequent confirmation all the more compelling. Women were free to enlarge upon their initial anguish, which must have been real, especially for the younger women. (Ten of Joseph's wives were under twenty.) They had to give up romance, cut themselves off from friends, perhaps suffer disgrace if they became pregnant. Their dreams of happiness, as Lucy said, were "Blown to the four winds." The point of the narratives was that spiritual confirmation alone persuaded them to comply." Rough Stone Rolling pg. 492 - 493

Let's take into consideration the experience of a woman who lied naked with the self proclaimed son of God Michael Travesser. She said of the experience, "Somehow it was like all of heaven was open to me. Somehow I started to see God." How much weight and consideration do we give to this spiritual witness? I submit that most if not all of us would reject the experience out of hand with no serious consideration that it was of divine origin.
I would argue that the use of spiritual experiences in Mormonism is perhaps one of the best examples of confirmation bias available. Spiritual experiences that reaffirm the validity of Mormonism are encouraged, and shared openly in sacrament meeting on a monthly basis. While spiritual experiences that conflict with the truth claims of Mormonism are ignored or dismissed as invalid. Even spiritual experiences that merely expand upon Mormonism but that originate from some non-official source are disregarded.

So what do we do when we are presented with the spiritual experience of someone like Lucy Walker? Let's recap the Lucy Walker story for those who are unfamiliar with it. After her mother dies January 18, 1842. Her fathers health started to suffer and Lucy writes that, "The prophet came to the rescue. He said, if you remain here Bro. Walker, you will soon follow your wife. You must have a change of scene, a change of climate. You have just such a family as I could love. My house shall be their home. For the present, I would advise you to sell your effects, place the little ones with kind friends, and the four Eldest shall come to my house and [be] received and treated as my own children" In Sacred Loneliness, pg 462
After her father left lucy writes that "The prophet and his wife introduced us as their sons and daughters." Then sometime during 1842 Joseph Smith interviewed the 15 or 16 year old Lucy Walker stating that, "I have a message for you, I have been commanded of God to take another wife, and you are the woman." She wrote of the experience that she was, "tempted and tortured beyond endurance until life was not desirable." In April of 1843 Joseph Smith stated to Lucy Walker, "It is a command of God to you... I will give you until to-morrow to decide this matter. If you reject this message the gate will be closed forever against you." That night Lucy was unable to sleep, but sometime before dawn she says, "My room became filled with a heavenly influence. To me it was in comparison like the brilliant sun bursting through the darkest cloud... My Soul was filled with a calm, sweet peace that I never knew. Supreme happiness took possession of my whole being. And I received a powerful and irristable testimony of the truth of the marriage covenant called "Celestial or plural marriage."

So what do we do with this spiritual experience?
Let's consider the girl's situation, her mother died, and her father is sent on a mission. The man who promised to take her and her siblings in "as my own children" is repeatedly asking her to accept plural marriage and this apparently goes on for months. Then Joseph Smith gives her a day to decide saying that if she declines the "gate will be closed forever against you." Could it be possible that the spiritual experience was triggered by the extreme pressure placed on her?

If we were talking about Warren Jeffs instead of Joseph Smith, how then would we view her spiritual experience? How much weight and consideration would we give it? Would we even entertain the possibility that her experience was of divine origin?

[_Joe Geisner]

Stormy,

Excellent observations.

Lucy's divine experience was/is as valid as the numerous other women who have had similar expediencies. The women in the FLDS, AUB, TLC and the other fundamentalist groups have similar experiences, some are even more miraculous.

Two summers ago, I sat by an author who has written extensively on Nauvoo polygamy. As we watched Warren Jeff's trial, he made the comment, "this is like watching Joseph Smith on trial." I immediately agreed.

[_why me]

The critics usually omit the spiritual witnesses that the women received. But these experiences were strong and quite convincing. One other tidbit that seems to be forgotten with the critics: none of these women ever spoke a negative word against him. And that is quite amazing.

[_why me]

Stormy,

Excellent observations.

Lucy's divine experience was/is as valid as the numerous other women who have had similar expediencies. The women in the FLDS, AUB, TLC and the other fundamentalist groups have similar experiences, some are even more miraculous.

Two summers ago, I sat by an author who has written extensively on Nauvoo polygamy. As we watched Warren Jeff's trial, he made the comment, "this is like watching Joseph Smith on trial." I immediately agreed.

Except that the comparison falls flat as it usually does when compared with Jeffs, Koresh, or Jones.

[_Equality]

The critics usually omit the spiritual witnesses that the women received. But these experiences were strong and quite convincing. One other tidbit that seems to be forgotten with the critics: none of these women ever spoke a negative word against him. And that is quite amazing.

You seem to have missed the point of the post entirely. There is no question that some of Joseph Smith's illegal plural wives had strong spiritual experiences, just like women in polygamist cults today describe strong spiritual experiences. Do you give credence to the fromer but not the latter? If so, why?

[_Stormy Waters]

Hello Why Me, I anticipated your participation and this thread, and I want to look to take a look back to a thread titled, "A Tale of Church court." The thread was about a woman who claimed to have had a powerful spiritual experience with Christ and as a result was disfellowshipped from the church.

When addressing that spiritural experience you said this,

As I linked to earlier in this thread, she is having personal conversations with Christ and jotting down his replies to her. The whole tone of these conversations reminds of saint faustina who wrote a diary with thoughts and personal responses from Christ. Now could it be happening? Yes. But in this case I highly doubt it. I can see this woman in meetings raising her hand and reporting a personal conversation with Christ complete with his answered response. Not to mention other comments.

Something is not right here. But of course, the people here just can't see it because it is much better to see her as a victim. Fine.

Why do I bring this up? Because you are doing exactly the type of thing I described in the OP. Because it doesn't mix well with the truth claims of Mormonism you dismiss the spiritual experience, you say it probably didn't happen, and you also said, '"I can see clearly the problem. She seems a little unbalanced."

This is one of the points I was trying to make. If spiritual experiences are used in your defense, it's problematic to dismiss other spiritual experiences wholesale when they don't match your conclusions. You are just cherry picking the spiritual experiences that match your conclusions.

[_ZelphtheGreat]

One other tidbit that seems to be forgotten with the critics: none of these women ever spoke a negative word against him. And that is quite amazing.

-----------------------

That we know of.

But then, most members don't know that Emma is supposed to have poisoned Joseph's coffee in an attempt to kill him.

Also that many of the girls who had lived in the home with Joseph and Emma were later his "wives". A perfect example of a sexual predator grooming his victims.

[_bcspace]

Let's take into consideration the experience of a woman who lied naked with the self proclaimed son of God Michael Travesser. She said of the experience, "Somehow it was like all of heaven was open to me. Somehow I started to see God." How much weight and consideration do we give to this spiritual witness? I submit that most if not all of us would reject the experience out of hand with no serious consideration that it was of divine origin.

Then why do you present it as a comparison when it's apples and oranges?

[_Joe Geisner]

One other tidbit that seems to be forgotten with the critics: none of these women ever spoke a negative word against him. And that is quite amazing.

This is quite a funny claim.

Helen Mar Kimball said of the experience: “I will never be sealed to my Father, (meaning as a wife) and would never have been sealed (married) to Joseph, had I known it was anything more than ceremony. I was young, and they deceived me, by saying the salvation of our whole family depended on it. I say again, I will never be sealed to my Father; no, will sooner be damned and go to hell, if I must. Neither will I be sealed to Brigham Young.”

I would suggest this is quite negative.

If you want to measure allegiance, then Smith does not hold a candle (pun intended) to David Koresh. His wives were willing to be burnt a live because of their loyalty and commitment.

[_bcspace]

Helen Mar Kimball said of the experience: “I will never be sealed to my Father, (meaning as a wife) and would never have been sealed (married) to Joseph, had I known it was anything more than ceremony. I was young, and they deceived me, by saying the salvation of our whole family depended on it. I say again, I will never be sealed to my Father; no, will sooner be damned and go to hell, if I must. Neither will I be sealed to Brigham Young.”

I would suggest this is quite negative.

I would suggest that it's more likely to have been made up as Compton suspects it is.