First Principles in GD Class Yesterday

[_consiglieri]

The subject in Sunday School yesterday (2/17/13) was the first principles and ordinances of the gospel. I did some research on a few issues relating to this subject, wrote them down on the fly-leaf of my triple combination, and went to class hoping to be able to contribute at an appropriate time.

The subject matter was rudimentary, and the teacher said these were all four deep subjects and an entire year could be spent on any one of them, so they would just be touching lightly on each during the class.

About 25-minutes into the class, she got to D&C 20:37, which was one of the scriptures I had ready to go. She read the passage and then asked for comments from the class about what was required of somebody before they were baptized. Several responses were given, none of which touched on the disparate aspect of the verse.

The teacher was moving onto another scripture, when I raised my hand and asked if I could call her back to D&C 20:37. I said there was a “radioactive” part of the scripture which nobody seemed to want to talk about, and I thought it deserved honorable mention.

I said it is common for us to look at the fourth article of faith and think these things always have to come in a certain order, first faith, then repentance, then baptism by immersion for the remission of sins, then receipt of the gift of the Holy Ghost; that some scriptures indicate a different order, and that the complexity provided by scripture compares favorably with the complexity we encounter in real life and individually.

I said that the articles of faith say that we receive baptism “for the remission of sins,” but that D&C 20:37 actually says that, in order for a person to be baptized, they have to present evidence that they have been moved upon by the Spirit such that they have already received “a remission of their sins.”

I mentioned that Alma 7:14 suggests that faith comes after baptism, not before; that this idea is supported in D&C 88:118 says that some members of the church (who have presumably been baptized) do not have faith (“as all have not faith”).

I hesitated briefly to go on, but said I might as well get it out all out on the table, if she didn’t mind. She said she did not and so I proceeded.

I said that not only is the order of the first principles and ordinances of the gospel different in different scriptures, but Joseph Smith himself differed with himself on what he thought was the first principle of the gospel.

In 1842 when he wrote the Articles of Faith for the Wentworth Letter, he listed Faith in Jesus Christ as the first principle of the gospel, but in 1844 in his conference address on April 7th (a.k.a., King Follet Discourse), he returned to the subject of the first principle of the gospel, and said it was something quite different.

Here I read from what I had quoted on my fly-leaf (TPJS, pp. 345-46)—“It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God; that we may converse with him as one man converses with another; that he was once a man the same as us; that God, the Father of us all, once dwelt upon an earth the same as Jesus Christ.” (roughed out from memory)

The teacher asked me to read that again; and so I did, a little slower this time for it to sink in.

The teacher said she thought that was the same as Faith in Jesus Christ, and so Joseph wasn’t really teaching anything different. She asked me if I didn’t think so; I said I absolutely did not (but said it in a friendly though firm way).

She asked me how I would define faith. I said that is complicated and joked about how she said it could take a year of classes just to cover the subject; adding that I would probably take two years.

Then a 70-year old class member spoke about his mission to Bolivia he served with his wife, and how in the first discussion they would talk about this; how they would talk about God and his nature, and that we lived in the premortal existence with him and why it is we came to earth.

I countered by saying, “But that deals with where we came from and why we are here; this deals with where God came from, and why he is there.”

The teacher then segued into the next subject by saying my mind was just more complicated than most; to which I said, “Not at all.” Dropping my voice to a whisper, I said to the person beside me, “It’s just more open.”

I then apologized to the person beside me, a nice older lady I have known for years, saying, “I’m sure it isn’t always nice to be sitting next to me.” She laughed and hit me on the leg.

I was kind of thinking what is the point of doing this when everybody seems to be set in thinking one way and only one way; but reminded myself that I was just sending up a flare to let any similar minded members know they weren’t alone. (“We are sowing, daily sowing.”)

Sure enough, after class I was in the hallway and a middle-aged sister I did not know (may have been visiting) came up and introduced herself to me, saying she appreciated what I said in Sunday School and that it would be interesting to have me in a scripture study. That was helpful to me because it let me know my comments were not all in vain.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[_Abaddon]

I skipped Sunday School with the wife and kids and we went on a hike to a desert mountain. (Very green after all the rain lately, light breeze; it was quite lovely.)

Anyway, I just thought I would throw that in, because I think my story sounds so much more interesting than yours does.

Lol. I tease, I tease.

I only post this, because I recall your wife and you leaving for KFC instead of going to Sunday School a few weeks back. You should do that more often than waste brain power during the 2nd hour. Or go on a hike to see what God made for you (if you believe that sort of thing) than debating about the attributes of said God.

[_karl61]

Thanks for the post about the first principles of the gospel.

[_Yoda]

Thanks for the post, Consig!

I don't get to attend SS because I play the piano for Primary. I would love to be a fly on the wall sometime during your SS classes!

[_lostindc]

I skipped Sunday School with the wife and kids and we went on a hike to a desert mountain. (Very green after all the rain lately, light breeze; it was quite lovely.)

Anyway, I just thought I would throw that in, because I think my story sounds so much more interesting than yours does.

Lol. I tease, I tease.

I only post this, because I recall your wife and you leaving for KFC instead of going to Sunday School a few weeks back. You should do that more often than waste brain power during the 2nd hour. Or go on a hike to see what God made for you (if you believe that sort of thing) than debating about the attributes of said God.

Sundays are the best lately. We have been heading to the smithsonian each sunday. Generally we pick a particular museum then we hit one of the movies at air and space or natural history. Kids beg for this instead of even uttering the phrase Church.

[_zeezrom]

I guess I never thought the order was super important with the exception of the confirmation coming after baptism.

I believed my child baptism to be nothing more than a formality and my conduct afterwards (as an adult) is what really mattered.

I used to think it would be cool to change the baptism age to say, 18. I have since changed my mind because then the church wouldn't be quite as "Mormon-ish". I do, however, think it would be cool if single moms or singly active moms could baptize their children. It is sick and wrong that they can't.

[_lulu]

D&C 20:37 recieve April 1830

"and truly manifest by their works that they have received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins"

The receipt of the Spirit for the remission of sins would have fit right in with a particular stripe of Methodism of the time.

Will leave it to a real theologian how "works" might have been understood in this context vis a vis being slain in the spirit at the time and place. In deed one could take a long time on this issue.

Chris, Seth you out there?

[_zeezrom]

Doctrines like these were so jumbled across the spectrum of LDS dogma that I had no choice but assume there was some higher law to concern ourselves with. Being kind and respectful trumps, for example.

Funny how we do all this post-activity philosophizing. I never pondered religion like this when I was active, lol.

[_DrW]

I skipped Sunday School with the wife and kids and we went on a hike to a desert mountain. (Very green after all the rain lately, light breeze; it was quite lovely.)

Anyway, I just thought I would throw that in, because I think my story sounds so much more interesting than yours does.

Lol. I tease, I tease.

I only post this, because I recall your wife and you leaving for KFC instead of going to Sunday School a few weeks back. You should do that more often than waste brain power during the 2nd hour. Or go on a hike to see what God made for you (if you believe that sort of thing) than debating about the attributes of said God.

Sundays are the best lately. We have been heading to the smithsonian each sunday. Generally we pick a particular museum then we hit one of the movies at air and space or natural history. Kids beg for this instead of even uttering the phrase Church.

In our family, there is nothing like attending church at the helm of a sailboat slicing through the waves in a fresh breeze off the coast on a warm sunny Sunday afternoon in February. Below is an image of the helm on one such afternoon.



In fact, unlike the Smithsonian or KFC (both worthy and sanctified places, for sure) sailboats actually have a pulpit at which one can stand to admire (and worship if you wish) the beauties of nature. Sometimes the beauties of nature can be observed sitting on the pulpit as well, as shown below.

(For illustrative purposes only as to the location and use of a sailboat pulpit. The beauty of nature shown below is not on my pulpit and not on my crew).



Sorry for the derail, consig., really. But I am so over GD class as a way to waste a Sunday, I just couldn't help myself. I guess my first principle regarding GD class is not to be there, under any circumstances.

[_lostindc]

In our family, there is nothing like attending church at the helm of a sailboat slicing through the waves in a fresh breeze off the coast on a warm sunny Sunday afternoon in February. Below is an image of the helm on one such afternoon.



In fact, unlike the Smithsonian or KFC (both worthy and sanctified places, for sure) sailboats actually have a pulpit at which one can stand to admire (and worship if you wish) the beauties of nature. Sometimes the beauties of nature can be observed sitting on the pulpit as well, as shown below.

(For illustrative purposes only as to the location and use of a sailboat pulpit. The beauty of nature shown below is not on my pulpit and not on my crew).



Sorry for the derail, consig., really. But I am so over GD class as a way to waste a Sunday, I just couldn't help myself. I guess my first principle regarding GD class is not to be there, under any circumstances.

I really love the lady...or I mean sailboat in the picture.

Living where I live I should be a sailor, but I am not. I am not responsible enough to be in charge of a sailboat. We have now lived within general walking distance of neighborhood docks yet we never capitalized on the experience. Being that I am originally from pittsburgh, I really appreciate now living near substantial water.