Joseph and Lance

[_beastie]

in my opinion, Lance Armstrong is a sociopath. Yes, he also did good things, as well, but that doesn't change his nature as a sociopath. I believe he is a sociopath because he deliberately tried to ruin the lives and reputations of people who simply told the truth about him.

Joseph Smith was a sociopath for the same reason. Sure, he also did good things, and the church he founded does some good things as well, but that doesn't change his nature as a sociopath. For example, he tried to destroy the reputation of William Law, who simply told the truth about polygamy. He did the same to Martha Brotherton.

In the years since leaving the church, my opinion has been uncertain as to Joseph's motives and nature. I do believe that there may have been other possible issues involved as well. I have longed believed he was narcissistic, but this recent Lance Armstrong episode has sealed the deal for me. Lance is a live example of a sociopath, and I think Joseph fits the bill well.

It is an accident of life that the church he founded has the capacity to do some good in people's lives, along with the real harm it sometimes does as well.

[_Quasimodo]

in my opinion, Lance Armstrong is a sociopath. Yes, he also did good things, as well, but that doesn't change his nature as a sociopath. I believe he is a sociopath because he deliberately tried to ruin the lives and reputations of people who simply told the truth about him.

Joseph Smith was a sociopath for the same reason. Sure, he also did good things, and the church he founded does some good things as well, but that doesn't change his nature as a sociopath. For example, he tried to destroy the reputation of William Law, who simply told the truth about polygamy. He did the same to Martha Brotherton.

In the years since leaving the church, my opinion has been uncertain as to Joseph's motives and nature. I do believe that there may have been other possible issues involved as well. I have longed believed he was narcissistic, but this recent Lance Armstrong episode has sealed the deal for me. Lance is a live example of a sociopath, and I think Joseph fits the bill well.

It is an accident of life that the church he founded has the capacity to do some good in people's lives, along with the real harm it sometimes does as well.

I've thought for some time that Joe was a classic sociopath. I guess Lance could fall into this category, as well.

Generally, when sociopaths do good things, it's for self serving reasons. Just like when they are overly flattering to new acquaintances, it's an effort to win over a new victim.

[_Falcon A]

The difference for me would be that, for whatever reason, Lance "fessed up", thus vindicating his accusers. Too late maybe.

Joseph didn't live long enough to make such a confession.
Lance can 'repent' can't he?

Confess. Lance did that
Forsake.Doubt he'll win a Tour by cheating again.
Remember(ed?) no more. Forgetaboutit.

This leads me to ask sincerely. To complete the repentance process, Mormon Style, who is supposed to forget about it? The repentant? or everyone else who knows about the sin? or Jesus?

Lance is likely stigmatized for life.

Peace.

[_zeezrom]

I thought about this while riding up a big hill after work. Lance trained a lot and worked really hard. So did Joseph Smith.

I call them fallen heroes.

[_beastie]

I thought about this while riding up a big hill after work. Lance trained a lot and worked really hard. So did Joseph Smith.

I call them fallen heroes.

I suppose that depends on how you define "hero". Can you call a man a "hero", who, while doing the thing that makes him heroic, was simultaneously engaged in deceptive, manipulative, and destructive behavior AND deliberately seeking to destroy the lives of those who simply told the truth about his behavior?

I would agree that they're "fallen heroes" only in the sense that people viewed them as herioc, and then later saw the reality of their behavior. They were never real heroes, in my opinion.

Here's a test for sociopathy:

The following questionnaire is based on research and experiences of socialised sociopaths. For each trait, decide if it applies to the person you suspect may be a socialised sociopath, fully (2 points), partially (1 point) or not at all (0 points).

1) Do they have problems sustaining stable relationships, personally and in business?

2) Do they frequently manipulate others to achieve selfish goals, with no consideration of the effects on those manipulated?

3) Are they cavalier about the truth, and capable of telling lies to your face?

4) Do they have an air of self-importance, regardless of their true standing in society?

5) Have they no apparent sense of remorse, shame or guilt?

6) Is their charm superficial, and capable of being switched on to suit immediate ends?

7) Are they easily bored and demand constant stimulation?

8) Are their displays of human emotion unconvincing?

9) Do they enjoy taking risks, and acting on reckless impulse?

10) Are they quick to blame others for their mistakes?

11) As teenagers, did they resent authority, play truant and/or steal?

12) Do they have no qualms about sponging off others?

13) Are they quick to lose their temper?

14) Are they sexually promiscuous?

15) Do they have a belligerent, bullying manner?

16) Are they unrealistic about their long-term aims?

17) Do they lack any ability to empathise with others?

18) Would you regard them as essentially irresponsible?

A score of 25 or above suggests strong psychopathic tendencies. This does not mean the person is a potential mass-murderer: socialised psychopaths are not mad, nor do they have to resort to violence. Even so, a close professional or emotional relationship with a socialised psychopath is likely to prove a damaging experience.

http://www.vodahost.com/web-hosting-soc ... tion.html/

Of course, we can't answer all of these questions about Joseph Smith, but we can answer enough of them to draw a conclusion.

[_zeezrom]

I thought about this while riding up a big hill after work. Lance trained a lot and worked really hard. So did Joseph Smith.

I call them fallen heroes.

I suppose that depends on how you define "hero". Can you call a man a "hero", who, while doing the thing that makes him heroic, was simultaneously engaged in deceptive, manipulative, and destructive behavior AND deliberately seeking to destroy the lives of those who simply told the truth about his behavior?

Good point. I meant "A hero in my mind."

[_Jason Bourne]

Argh!

I can't take it. Two of my heroes fallen! I will never have another hero again.

As a cancer survivor who Armstrong inspired to fight like hell to live then jump on a bike afterward...

As a supporter of his foundation who on 6 or 7, I lose count, 100 mile LIVESTRONG rides raised almost $50K for his foundation....

As an avid cyclist and an Armstrong believer until last October, even posting a picture of him going across the line on his 7th TDF win with seven finger raised as my profile last August when he said he would not asnwer USAD....

Do I ever feel like a dumb crap of at least the profile pic.

Stll the man inspired my to win a fight against a disease ( among others as well as myself) and because of him I am an amature bike racer and long distance rider today. And this is something I enjoy more than I can say.


I cannot even talk about Lance Armstrong these days any more than that. I would smack both him and Joseph upside the head if I could.

[_zeezrom]

Oh man, Jason. I'm sad that lance has fallen from grace because of stories like yours.

Let's not think about lance the man. Let's think about "lance" the ideal.

Is it possible?

[_Cylon]

Argh!

I can't take it. Two of my heroes fallen! I will never have another hero again.

As a cancer survivor who Armstrong inspired to fight like hell to live then jump on a bike afterward...

As a supporter of his foundation who on 6 or 7, I lose count, 100 mile LIVESTRONG rides raised almost $50K for his foundation....

As an avid cyclist and an Armstrong believer until last October, even posting a picture of him going across the line on his 7th TDF win with seven finger raised as my profile last August when he said he would not asnwer USAD....

Do I ever feel like a dumb s*** of at least the profile pic.

Stll the man inspired my to win a fight against a disease ( among others as well as myself) and because of him I am an amature bike racer and long distance rider today. And this is something I enjoy more than I can say.


I cannot even talk about Lance Armstrong these days any more than that. I would smack both him and Joseph upside the head if I could.

That sucks, Jason. Still, I hope you remember that whatever put those ideas into your head, you were the one that took them and ran with them. You own your accomplishments, and nobody can take those away from you.

[_beastie]

Argh!

I can't take it. Two of my heroes fallen! I will never have another hero again.

As a cancer survivor who Armstrong inspired to fight like hell to live then jump on a bike afterward...

As a supporter of his foundation who on 6 or 7, I lose count, 100 mile LIVESTRONG rides raised almost $50K for his foundation....

As an avid cyclist and an Armstrong believer until last October, even posting a picture of him going across the line on his 7th TDF win with seven finger raised as my profile last August when he said he would not asnwer USAD....

Do I ever feel like a dumb s*** of at least the profile pic.

Stll the man inspired my to win a fight against a disease ( among others as well as myself) and because of him I am an amature bike racer and long distance rider today. And this is something I enjoy more than I can say.


I cannot even talk about Lance Armstrong these days any more than that. I would smack both him and Joseph upside the head if I could.

One of the most valuable traits of human beings is their ability to create something good out of something that had less than noble origins.

But, yeah, it was doubly devastating to find this out about Lance, given his heroic status in regards to his fight against cancer.