Could God the Father have been a horse thief?

[_BartBurk]

You know the old saying about having a few horse thieves in our family. In Mormonism God the Father once lived a life on another planet just like the one we are living now. We don't know anything about what God the Father's life was like, but I suppose it is not inconceivable within Mormon doctrine that God could have committed all kinds of sin, and been saved by an atonement, before he became God. Do you think Mormons are generally comfortable with a God who might have been an adulterer in a previous life? Maybe the Mormon God was even gay and repented before he became God.

[_robuchan]

If you take all the speculative doctrine Joseph Smith taught in King Follet, etc, then the answer is theoretically yes he could have been a horse thief, and there may be be Gods in other spheres who were horse thieves, but we know that our God the Father was a Savior, because Joseph Smith specifically mentions this in KFD. All ver

[_BartBurk]

If you take all the speculative doctrine Joseph Smith taught in King Follet, etc, then the answer is theoretically yes he could have been a horse thief, and there may be be Gods in other spheres who were horse thieves, but we know that our God the Father was a Savior, because Joseph Smith specifically mentions this in KFD. All ver

I just looked through the King Follett sermon and did not see where it said the Father was a Savior.

[_DrW]

You know the old saying about having a few horse thieves in our family. In Mormonism God the Father once lived a life on another planet just like the one we are living now. We don't know anything about what God the Father's life was like, but I suppose it is not inconceivable within Mormon doctrine that God could have committed all kinds of sin, and been saved by an atonement, before he became God. Do you think Mormons are generally comfortable with a God who might have been an adulterer in a previous life? Maybe the Mormon God was even gay and repented before he became God.

[_robuchan]

I just looked through the King Follett sermon and did not see where it said the Father was a Savior.

hmm, maybe I'm remembering wrong. It's when he talks about Jesus saying I have done nothing the Father has already done. I thought it was fairly specific about Elohim also previously being a Savior, or maybe I'm thinking of some doctrinal commentary of KFD done at a later time.

[_BartBurk]

I just looked through the King Follett sermon and did not see where it said the Father was a Savior.

hmm, maybe I'm remembering wrong. It's when he talks about Jesus saying I have done nothing the Father has already done. I thought it was fairly specific about Elohim also previously being a Savior, or maybe I'm thinking of some doctrinal commentary of KFD done at a later time.

There is this:

I wish I was in a suitable place to tell it, and that I had the trump of an archangel, so that I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease for ever. What did Jesus say? (Mark it, Elder Rigdon!) The Scriptures inform us that Jesus said, As the Father hath power in Himself, even so hath the Son power -- to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious -- in a manner to lay down His body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. Do we believe it? I you do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible. The Scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it.

I don't know if that means the Father had been a Saviour -- just that the Father had been a resurrected being. That actually complicates the entire sermon for me. Does that mean we have to learn how to take up our lives again, or is it something God accomplishes for us through Christ? Does it really mean that we can't become Gods like the Father and Jesus, but only in a limited sense? And would all of the ancestor Gods of the Father also had to have been Saviours to be Gods of our Father?

[_Tobin]

BartBurk,

The fact is we aren't like God the Father or Jesus Christ, his only begotten son. Nor can we ever be. We do not live perfect lives. We sin, God does not. God saves us. We can not save ourselves. Your confusion lies around the rather false concept that man can become God one day. That is not so. We can be saved and become Celestial Beings and share in all that God has to offer us, but we can not do what God does for us ever nor be God. It is beyond us. Only Jesus Christ (and his Father) could do this because they are a different order of intelligence and class of being (ie God).

You have essentially stumbled on the truth in your confusion.

[_Bazooka]

BartBurk,

The fact is we aren't like God the Father or Jesus Christ, his only begotten son. Nor can we ever be. We do not live perfect lives. We sin, God does not. God saves us. We can not save ourselves. Your confusion lies around the rather false concept that man can become God one day. That is not so. We can be saved and become Celestial Beings and share in all that God has to offer us, but we can not do what God does for us ever nor be God. It is beyond us. Only Jesus Christ (and his Father) could do this because they are a different order of intelligence and class of being (ie God).

You have essentially stumbled on the truth in your confusion.

*clangclangclangclang*

Once again Tobin is wrong.

Our Heavenly Father is perfect, and He glories in the fact that it is possible for His children to become like Him. His work and glory is “to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39).

Those who receive exaltation in the celestial kingdom through faith in Jesus Christ will receive special blessings. The Lord has promised, “All things are theirs” (D&C 76:59). These are some of the blessings given to exalted people:

1. They will live eternally in the presence of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ (see D&C 76:62).
2. They will become gods (see D&C 132:20–23).
3. They will be united eternally with their righteous family members and will be able to have eternal increase.
4. They will receive a fulness of joy.
5. They will have everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have—all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge (see D&C 132:19–20). President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote: “The Father has promised through the Son that all that he has shall be given to those who are obedient to His commandments. They shall increase in knowledge, wisdom, and power, going from grace to grace, until the fulness of the perfect day shall burst upon them” (Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols. [1954–56], 2:36; italics in original).

Joseph Smith taught: “It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God. . . . He was once a man like us; . . . God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith [1976], 345–46).

Both quotes are from the Gospel Principles manual Chapter 47;Exaltation

[_robuchan]

BartBurk,

The fact is we aren't like God the Father or Jesus Christ, his only begotten son. Nor can we ever be. We do not live perfect lives. We sin, God does not. God saves us. We can not save ourselves. Your confusion lies around the rather false concept that man can become God one day. That is not so. We can be saved and become Celestial Beings and share in all that God has to offer us, but we can not do what God does for us ever nor be God. It is beyond us. Only Jesus Christ (and his Father) could do this because they are a different order of intelligence and class of being (ie God).

You have essentially stumbled on the truth in your confusion.

*clangclangclangclang*

Once again Tobin is wrong.

Our Heavenly Father is perfect, and He glories in the fact that it is possible for His children to become like Him. His work and glory is “to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39).

Those who receive exaltation in the celestial kingdom through faith in Jesus Christ will receive special blessings. The Lord has promised, “All things are theirs” (D&C 76:59). These are some of the blessings given to exalted people:

1. They will live eternally in the presence of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ (see D&C 76:62).
2. They will become gods (see D&C 132:20–23).
3. They will be united eternally with their righteous family members and will be able to have eternal increase.
4. They will receive a fulness of joy.
5. They will have everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have—all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge (see D&C 132:19–20). President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote: “The Father has promised through the Son that all that he has shall be given to those who are obedient to His commandments. They shall increase in knowledge, wisdom, and power, going from grace to grace, until the fulness of the perfect day shall burst upon them” (Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols. [1954–56], 2:36; italics in original).

Joseph Smith taught: “It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God. . . . He was once a man like us; . . . God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith [1976], 345–46).

Both quotes are from the Gospel Principles manual Chapter 47;Exaltation

Tobin's overstating his case. At best his position can fit as an understanding of the doctrine which is in the minority but still somewhat mainstream. But I don't think these quotes definitively prove Tobin wrong. As I mentioned in another thread, the church is becoming intentionally less vague on many doctrinal issues. This is a good example.

I think the answer is "I don't know that we teach this, I don't know that we know."

[_Tobin]

Tobin's overstating his case. At best his position can fit as an understanding of the doctrine which is in the minority but still somewhat mainstream. But I don't think these quotes definitively prove Tobin wrong. As I mentioned in another thread, the church is becoming intentionally less vague on many doctrinal issues. This is a good example.

I think the answer is "I don't know that we teach this, I don't know that we know."

I see nothing wrong with what I stated and no conflict with the gospel. It is your failure to grasp what is being said that is the issue here and the true nature of God and our relationship with God - nothing more. I noticed you have failed to address the fact that we are not Jesus Christ, do not live perfect lives, do not suffer for the sins of the world, do not lay down our lives and take them up again. There is nothing overstated here at all. It is perfectly clear we are not God nor can ever be God. WE CAN be Celestial Beings and share in all that God has to give us. That does not mean we can do all that God does and has done though.