robuchan wrote:Tobin's overstating his case. At best his position can fit as an understanding of the doctrine which is in the minority but still somewhat mainstream. But I don't think these quotes definitively prove Tobin wrong. As I mentioned in another thread, the church is becoming intentionally less vague on many doctrinal issues. This is a good example.
I think the answer is "I don't know that we teach this, I don't know that we know."
I see nothing wrong with what I stated and no conflict with the gospel. It is your failure to grasp what is being said that is the issue here and the true nature of God and our relationship with God - nothing more. I noticed you have failed to address the fact that we are not Jesus Christ, do not live perfect lives, do not suffer for the sins of the world, do not lay down our lives and take them up again. There is nothing overstated here at all. It is perfectly clear we are not God nor can ever be God. WE CAN be Celestial Beings and share in all that God has to give us. That does not mean we can do all that God does and has done though.
You basically are stating you believe what I as a Catholic and the Eastern Orthodox believe about theosis. We can become gods, but not God.
Tobin wrote: I see nothing wrong with what I stated and no conflict with the gospel. It is your failure to grasp what is being said that is the issue here and the true nature of God and our relationship with God - nothing more. I noticed you have failed to address the fact that we are not Jesus Christ, do not live perfect lives, do not suffer for the sins of the world, do not lay down our lives and take them up again. There is nothing overstated here at all. It is perfectly clear we are not God nor can ever be God. WE CAN be Celestial Beings and share in all that God has to give us. That does not mean we can do all that God does and has done though.
You basically are stating you believe what I as a Catholic and the Eastern Orthodox believe about theosis. We can become gods, but not God.
Except, Mormons believe they are the same substance of God, something they call "intelligence". God became Incarnate, but Mormons believe everyone became incarnate. Also, descriptors such as "different class" or "species" don't fit in orthodoxy, since God has neither class or species. :-) This idea betrays the Mormon denial of God's transcendence.
Being a Christian is not the result of an ethical choice or a lofty idea, but the encounter with an event, a person, which gives life a new horizon and a decisive direction -Pope Benedict XVI
Tobin wrote:I see nothing wrong with what I stated and no conflict with the gospel. It is your failure to grasp what is being said that is the issue here and the true nature of God and our relationship with God - nothing more. I noticed you have failed to address the fact that we are not Jesus Christ, do not live perfect lives, do not suffer for the sins of the world, do not lay down our lives and take them up again. There is nothing overstated here at all. It is perfectly clear we are not God nor can ever be God. WE CAN be Celestial Beings and share in all that God has to give us. That does not mean we can do all that God does and has done though.
You basically are stating you believe what I as a Catholic and the Eastern Orthodox believe about theosis. We can become gods, but not God.
And all Mormons should agree with their Christian brothers and sisters in that. The pernicious doctrine that man can be God in Mormonism is false. It stems from a misunderstanding and lack of appreciation for who Jesus Christ is and did for us. Man can be saved and share in salvation and exaltation because of God's action, that does not make men God though.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
madeleine wrote:Except, Mormons believe they are the same substance of God, something they call "intelligence". God became Incarnate, but Mormons believe everyone became incarnate. Also, descriptors such as "different class" or "species" don't fit in orthodoxy, since God has neither class or species. :-) This idea betrays the Mormon denial of God's transcendence.
Was Jesus Christ God? And what species was he precisely? Are you saying that Jesus Christ was not really human? I think your view is in direct denial of the New Testament.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
madeleine wrote:Except, Mormons believe they are the same substance of God, something they call "intelligence". God became Incarnate, but Mormons believe everyone became incarnate. Also, descriptors such as "different class" or "species" don't fit in orthodoxy, since God has neither class or species. :-) This idea betrays the Mormon denial of God's transcendence.
Was Jesus Christ God? And what species was he precisely? Are you saying that Jesus Christ was not really human? I think your view is in direct denial of the New Testament.
Jesus is fully God and fully Man. He is not a demigod (half God/half human). His divinity has no species or class. His humanity comes entirely from his mother, Mary, which most certainly is homo sapiens.
Hope that helps.
Being a Christian is not the result of an ethical choice or a lofty idea, but the encounter with an event, a person, which gives life a new horizon and a decisive direction -Pope Benedict XVI
madeleine wrote:Except, Mormons believe they are the same substance of God, something they call "intelligence". God became Incarnate, but Mormons believe everyone became incarnate. Also, descriptors such as "different class" or "species" don't fit in orthodoxy, since God has neither class or species. :-) This idea betrays the Mormon denial of God's transcendence.
Was Jesus Christ God? And what species was he precisely? Are you saying that Jesus Christ was not really human? I think your view is in direct denial of the New Testament.
madeleine wrote:Jesus is fully God and fully Man. He is not a demigod. His divinity has no species or class. His humanity comes entirely from his mother, Mary, which most certainly is homo sapiens.
Hope that helps.
You seem to have missed the point, so I'll make it to you. Apparently God has shared in the same substance as we do and that does not diminish God in any way. So I hope that helps.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
madeleine wrote:Jesus is fully God and fully Man. He is not a demigod. His divinity has no species or class. His humanity comes entirely from his mother, Mary, which most certainly is homo sapiens.
Hope that helps.
You seem to have missed the point, so I'll make it to you. Apparently God has shared in the same substance as we do and that does not diminish God in any way. So I hope that helps.
Well, there is why you cannot, and never will be, in agreement with your Christian brothers. We are not God, and never will be God. God is not created, you are.
Being a Christian is not the result of an ethical choice or a lofty idea, but the encounter with an event, a person, which gives life a new horizon and a decisive direction -Pope Benedict XVI
You know the old saying about having a few horse thieves in our family. In Mormonism God the Father once lived a life on another planet just like the one we are living now. We don't know anything about what God the Father's life was like, but I suppose it is not inconceivable within Mormon doctrine that God could have committed all kinds of sin, and been saved by an atonement, before he became God.
Sure. His skin might even have been black.
Do you think Mormons are generally comfortable with a God who might have been an adulterer in a previous life?
The only ones I know who would be post on the MDDB.
Maybe the Mormon God was even gay and repented before he became God.
It was my understanding that Mormon hyperliteral interpretation of the statement by Jesus that he'd done nothing save that which he'd seen his father do required Elohim to have been a savior on the planet he served his mortal probation on.
I will have to see if I can find more concrete references to that.
It's way too hyperliteral for my sensibilities. Even as a TBM I recall thinking wow, what a coincidence. We can become gods like Elohim is, but we just happen, of all the universes run by all the gods there are, to live in one presided over by the god who was the Christ of his generation of gods. What are the odds? Given the idea of each god presiding over infinite offspring, then the limit as N, the number of Elohim's generation of offspring, approaches infinity, in the equation 1/N, is 0 (zero).
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
BartBurk wrote:...God the Father once lived a life on another planet just like the one we are living now.
Emphasis mine.
Are we sure this is doctrine? It seems a lot more practical that God would have grown up on this planet.
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)