Public Relations -- what the Mopologists can't understand

[Guest]

Church has some problems:
--historical information available on the internet is causing a lot of members to stumble
--church got overly aggressive on politics and is now looking conservative and old and mean
--church has a lack of diversity, making non white, republican, nuclear family types feel uncomfortable

What the apologists don't get is that these are real problems that the church actually acknowledges are problems and are trying to correct. The church is backing off the anti-gay propaganda. Per Marlin K Jensen, the church realizes they are bleeding members, especially young adults, and they're looking at how to fix it.

As for apologetics: Terryl Givens is the new role model for church scholars. Acknowledge the "warts", be nice to the enemies, show empathy to apostates, point to the good things the church does, shrug your shoulders, and say "you just got to have faith". Dan Peterson's asshole/bully approach has been flushed down the toilet.

Who's more likely to get an "I'm a Mormon" video? Harley Davidson rider with long hair that wears a blue shirt to church or clean cut, suit wearing guy? A single mom, lawyer and child rights advocate or the Molly Mormon stay at home mom? Brandon Flowers or Dan Peterson?

The church is increasingly intentionally vague in matters of doctrine and politics. They want to encourage a big tent atmosphere. Focus on believing in Jesus and being good to each other, and let's set up a really big tent around everything else.

Dehlin is dangerously close to the edge on the liberal side of things. But frankly, Mopologists are dangerously close the edge on the conservative side of things. And the church suffers from both these. The church wants and needs the Dehlin side of things. That's where they get the I'm a Mormon people. That's where they can point to when the media comes and can say "see we don't hate gays, we're normal, we're young and hip and cool". Yes, they'd like them to tone things down and they'd like a little more control over this group, but they certainly don't want to cut them out or even force them all to shave and vote Republican. On the TBM side, yes they want their obedience and consecration. Those people that live and die for the church is what generates all the service hours the church needs to progress. But they want to control them too, they don't want this group starting a war with the NOM's, causing a divide, saying stupid stuff on blogs, and otherwise making the church look old, stale, and out of touch.

Between John Dehlin and Dan Peterson, if the church had to choose to keep one and toss one, DCP would be kicked to the curb. He's not adding any value. In fact, he's hurting things.

I haven't followed all this as closely as many of you, but it's very easy to believe that the church has tried to make DCP and his gang aware of this changing dynamic for quite some time, and they have just been too dense or too rebellious to comply. In the end, the church doesn't care much about the individual when the reputation and image of the entire church is at stake, and DCP has been chewed up and spit out.

What's so fascinating to me is that I think the Mopologists must understand what's going on. You've got two rational decisions. Step in line or fight back. They are choosing a third option. They are fighting, but not fighting back at the Mormon hierarchy that is beating them down, but they are fighting back at the apostates. ?? I just don't get it. And with every shot they fire at the apostates, they are getting themselves in deeper and deeper trouble with the Mormon hierarchy.

[_Equality]

I agree with a lot of this; some of it I think the jury is still out on. But I am really not sure about this one:

The church is backing off the anti-gay propaganda.

I think the church is currently speaking out of both sides of its mouth. Packer gives an anti-gay talk, which is then cleaned up by the anonymous COB drones. The church puts up a website to make it look like it is softening its stance, without actually changing any of its anti-gay doctrines or practices. The church stays out of anti-marriage-equality ballot initiatives and legislative efforts in multiple states, but then, just like Westboro Baptist Church, files an amicus brief at the Supreme Court arguing for continuing discrimination against gays with respect to the right to marry. If the church were of one mind about backing off its anti-gay agenda, it would not have filed that brief. And Tommy Boy would tell Crazy Uncle Boyd to give a talk on canning peaches instead of the dangers of packing fudge.

[Guest]

You have to ask the question, why does God's one true Church on earth need either?

Why would the true God need a trained spin doctor to gloss over His doctrines and commandments?
Why would the true God need a group of individuals to explain away anything to do with His Church?

It's meant to be a plain and simple Gospel that is 100% true.

My own personal view is that it's all about the money.
The PR department does it's glossing because the actual Church doctrines, beliefs and historicity is what is causing the outflow of members.
There's no getting away from that, people are voting with their feet and they don't want Mormonism.
That would be okay in God's eyes because people have a choice. Let the doctrines etc stand in the full glare of the midday sun and let people choose - in my opinion that is what God would do. He wouldn't play it down or cover it up or rewrite or ignore. He would have it out there in the open for all to see.
Nope, the Church now needs the dough, that's what drives it.

The problems with Mormonism aren't The Gospel (New testament Jesus Gospel).
The problems are with all the stuff to do with Mormonism, like plates and rocks and handshakes and bans on blacks and gays and money.
The stuff the PR department tries to play down and the Mopologists try to rewrite or reframe to make them sound better.

[_Droopy]

Church has some problems:
--historical information available on the internet is causing a lot of members to stumble

Any empirics behind this assertion (and even if true, substantial apostasy preceeding the Second Coming is expected and foreseen)?

--church got overly aggressive on politics and is now looking conservative and old and mean

Either that or the Ruling Class and the now sociocultural dominant cultural Left has become too aggressive on politics and the politicization of all aspects of human life (and its politically thuggish hostility to all of the traditional verities and values espoused and held sacred by LDS and other religious people) and elicited a reaction.

--church has a lack of diversity, making non white, republican, nuclear family types feel uncomfortable

Time for our daily Two Minutes Hate aimed maturity, conservatism, Caucasians, and the nuclear family.

Sounds like a typical Freshman orientation and any name public or private university in North America.

What the apologists don't get is that these are real problems that the church actually acknowledges are problems and are trying to correct.

These are only "problems" in the NOM world in which the un-political correctness of the Church is like running long fingernails along a dirty blackboard. Those are not "problems" but core worldview differences between Zion and the Great and Spacious Building, and the problem lies with those who have not as yet repented, been baptized, and received the Holy Ghost.

The church is backing off the anti-gay propaganda.

The Church never engaged in anti-gay propaganda. Homosexuality (homosexual behavior and lifestyle) is gross wickedness and serious transgression of the Lord's laws of sexual relations. That's all the Church is "anti" regarding.

Per Marlin K Jensen, the church realizes they are bleeding members, especially young adults, and they're looking at how to fix it.

Per the FP and Council of the Twelve, the scriptures, and settled gospel doctrine, homosexuality is gross wickedness and serious transgression of the Lord's laws of sexual relations.

As for apologetics: Terryl Givens is the new role model for church scholars. Acknowledge the "warts", be nice to the enemies, show empathy to apostates, point to the good things the church does, shrug your shoulders, and say "you just go to have faith". Dan Peterson's asshole/bully approach has been flushed down the toilet.

Did I miss the coronation?

Who's more likely to get an "I'm a Mormon" video? Harley Davidson rider with long hair that wears a blue shirt to church or clean cut, suit wearing guy? A single mom, lawyer and child rights advocate or the Molly Mormon stay at home mom? Brandon Flowers or Dan Peterson?

How about a gay rights activist in a jockstrap, sombrero, and seven inch zebra-striped platform shoes?

The church is increasingly intentionally vague in matters of doctrine and politics.

Nonsense. Who on earth do you think you're fooling?

They want to encourage a big tent atmosphere. Focus on believing in Jesus and being good to each other, and let's set up a really big tent around everything else.

No, this is the NOM/middle way/Reform Mormon project, not that of the Church. In projecting your own self-justificational fantasies onto the Church, you're indulging in gross intellectual dishonesty in the way you describe and interpret the Church for others.

Dehlin is dangerously close to the edge on the liberal side of things.

We agree!

But frankly, Mopologists are dangerously close the edge on the conservative side of things.

Its just the natural place to be, imperfect as it is, given LDS doctrine and philosophy.

And the church suffers from both these. The church wants and needs the Dehlin side of things.

Another great apostasy? Sounds great!

"Let's break out the booze and have a ball,
If that's all
There is."

That's where they can point to when the media comes and can say "see we don't hate gays, we're normal, we're young and hip and cool".

You apparently have no understanding whatsoever of what the Church is, what it claims to be, why that is important (to faithful members, at least) and the degree to which the Church is, always has been, and, as taught by the living oracles at this moment, always will be, moving in a direction of diametrical opposition to the secular world and the substantial majority of its philosophies, values, and beliefs.

This fantastic delusional reverie, cobbled together from a psych apparently so decoupled from reality that its own subjective fantasies are indistinguishable from actually existing existential phenomena around it, could only have come from a community such as this.

This place does, after all, have to "keep up appearances."

[_Bazooka]

Church has some problems:
--historical information available on the internet is causing a lot of members to stumble

Any empirics behind this assertion (and even if true, substantial apostasy preceeding the Second Coming is expected and foreseen)?

I suppose we'll just have to take Elder Jensen's word for it...he can be trusted, right?

[_Droopy]

I suppose we'll just have to take Elder Jensen's word for it...he can be trusted, right?

Any empirics, Bazooka? Any actual statistics that we can look at to gauge and orient the term "a lot" with respect to the total membership, or total membership actively engaged in online research?

[_Bazooka]

I suppose we'll just have to take Elder Jensen's word for it...he can be trusted, right?

Any empirics, Bazooka? Any actual statistics that we can look at to gauge and orient the term "a lot" with respect to the total membership, or total membership actively engaged in online research?

Well, to be honest I was making the assumption that Elder Jensen had seen the statistics when he commented that members were leaving on a scale not seen since Kirtland. Do you think he was just making it up?

I would love to see actual figures on activity rates but the Church keeps them a secret...errr....I mean sacred.
Unless you know where they are published?

We do have some comparison though.
In Brazil the difference between the Church number for membership and the census of what religion people claimed themselves to be was a million!

[_robuchan]

Droopy, I understand you don't get it. I understand you might not ever get it. I'm not interested in a battle with you. The whole topic is interesting to me in the way a car crash is interesting to cars driving by, but not much more than that.

Greg Smith wonders why no one at the church or BYU will answer his email.

DCP wonders why he got fired from his position as head apologist for the church.

All the Mopologists are confused as hell how they picked a fight with John Dehlin and the church took Dehlin's side.

Their world is coming crashing down. I'm offering some insight to you all as a charitable service.

[_Bazooka]

Droopy, I understand you don't get it. I understand you might not ever get it. I'm not interested in a battle with you. The whole topic is interesting to me in the way a car crash is interesting to cars driving by, but not much more than that.

Greg Smith wonders why no one at the church or BYU will answer his email.

DCP wonders why he got fired from his position as head apologist for the church.

All the Mopologists are confused as hell how they picked a fight with John Dehlin and the church took Dehlin's side.

Their world is coming crashing down. I'm offering some insight to you all as a charitable service.

The choice for the Church was a simple one. DCP et al have become bad for business. Dehlin puts bums (back) on seats.

[_bcspace]

--historical information available on the internet is causing a lot of members to stumble

True. But it's suppositional history at best.

--church got overly aggressive on politics and is now looking conservative and old and mean

LDS doctrine is conservative. Only a child who wants dessert before dinner would think it old and mean though.

--church has a lack of diversity, making non white, republican, nuclear family types feel uncomfortable

There is no need for the Church to branch out from God's direction. Your whole premise is flawed.