A Tepid Defense of Gregory Smith

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_Yahoo Bot
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A Tepid Defense of Gregory Smith

Post by _Yahoo Bot »

I post on this board again only because I am fearful that I can’t quite get out everything I want on the MAD board, where the moderators label me a “Board Nanny.” Frankly, I don’t know what is worse: Being labeled a “Board Nanny” and having my privileges suspended on particular threads (which, in my libertarian view, is a perfectly legitimate thing for MAD to do; it is a proprietary board; it can set the rules; if you don’t like them then don’t read the board; if you don’t like the looks of the new Ford Mustang GT, then don’t look at it or buy it) or what I endure here, anonymous complaints to my law firm’s management about the things I say here in an effort to have me removed from my professional employment. (I employ myself.) Or, in the case of Everybody Wang Chung, creating blatantly fake posts, that take a real post and couple it with my firm's signature line, to make look like I’m posting obnoxious things in the name of my law firm. The latter is far more damaging. EWG's obsession with me is similar, and as damaging, as another poster who repeatedly went after my law partners.

(I worry somewhat about Everybody Wang Chung. Why isn’t this libelous? “Numerous instances of DCP lying online (Second Watson Letter, etc.) . . . . DCP's deragatory [sic] and offensive comments regarding Gerald Bradford, BYU and the Maxwell Institute, . . . . DCP making light of sacred Jewish marriage practices when he was a tour guide.” Perhaps truth is a defense, but this is my area of practice and I do know that at least the third entry in my list isn’t fair comment; the others may not be either.)

Previously, I’ve expressed rather severe criticism of Greg Smith. Much of these criticisms remain for his two recently published papers. I wrote in July 2012:

As to poorly done, or at least poorly executed, I disagreed with the style and execution of Gregory L. Smith, “Shattered Glass: The Traditions of Mormon Same-Sex Marriage Advocates Encounter Boyd K. Packer” in FARMS Review 23:1. I really saw no need for FARMS Review to be cluttered with such nonsense, although I agreed with the article’s conclusions. I disagreed with the execution of Gregory L. Smith, “Often in Error, Seldom in Doubt: Rod Meldrum and Book of Mormon DNA,” in FARMS Review 22:1. I disliked it for its imponderable length, verbosity and its lack of editorial control. It was well-organized in the way a textbook might be organized. It was precisely written. But –. . . .


My specific prior criticisms of Greg’s work remain. Why isn’t there any fierce editorial control at MI? I recall somewhere that FARM Review was written in a way to help seminary instructors. Well, Smith’s pieces are not that. Running down every single rabbit hole with formulaic writing is not helpful analysis. Formulaic writing is the tedious resort to numbered paragraphs, bullet points, and paragraphs that begin with "First," "Second," and so forth. There's a place for that style; it isn't to be used at every turn and most readers will tire of it quickly.

But, he does provide needful analysis of a new medium, the podcast. John Dehlin’s work is a sort of “Festivus for the rest of us” academia; that sort of publication designed for those who don’t like to read. It is a legitimate topic of review and criticism. Given Dehlin’s cult-like status and following, driven by his podcast approach, it is high time that somebody has stepped forward to analyze what he says. And it is a difficult analysis. One cannot do a word search through the written word, or read it on a bus or train with a marking pencil. One must listen to the entire production.

Smith’s analysis is needful, thorough, insightful and thorough (I repeat this word for effect). I have frequently noted John Dehlin’s manifest misunderstanding of Mormonism, as he frequently admits he doesn’t like to read. I have noted Dehlin’s’ inconsistencies; in one podcast a speaker who has resigned from the Church complains that the Church won’t leave him alone, with frequent invitations to social functions and approaches by home teachers. The next speaker in the podcast, Dehlin himself, complains about being ignored in Church and treated as an outcast.

Where Smith crosses the line is his attempt to assess motivation. I haven’t been a fan of the review tactic of saying that somebody has a “hidden agenda.” I'm just using this phrase as an example, not to say that Smith actually uses it. (Note, that one of my published pieces has a similar phrase; it was an editorial addition. I don’t disavow it but in retrospect I shouldn’t have allowed it.) Trying to assess a hidden agenda is what Smith does; he seeks for the nefarious motivation. Dehlin may have a hidden agenda and a nefarious motive, but Smith's discussion of it is not really “fair comment” and should be avoided in any review. Indeed, First Amendment and libel law, which I could cite, generally looks to whether a reviewer deviates from the four corners of published material. The Interpreter should not allow such statements in its publication. A review should be of the four corners of the published material, and there is much about which to criticize Dehlin. Much.

I don’t see the big deal about criticizing Smith for citing deleted material. It is in the public domain. It is fair game.

Smith’s second piece, the “Unread” piece, is interesting and informative to me, but it is unnecessary sniping against the Maxwell Institute. I have long been on record as questioning Dr. Hamblin’s (and to a much lesser extent, Dr. Peterson’s) published statements about the reorganization of the Maxwell Institute. I think it is fairly apparent to the masses who read (as opposed to those who listen to podcasts) that the reorganization of MI has the ratification of BYU’s administration, if not the prior imprimatur. So, it isn’t nice to continually attack and criticize my alma mater on such trivial things.

In summary, Smith’s pieces are filled with helpful information but they are rather poorly executed. The second piece is filled with helpful information for those interested in a rather silly and needless piece of history. I would liken the second piece to an 80-page history of my homeowner’s association.
Last edited by Guest on Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_Droopy
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Re: A Tepid Defense of Gregory Smith

Post by _Droopy »

Yahoo Bot wrote: Frankly, I don’t know what is worse: Being labeled a “Board Nanny” and having my privileges suspended on particular threads


Try being banned for defending Matin Luther King's philosophy of colorblind integration within the context of an orgy of PC moral grandstanding.

An unhappy circumstance.

Or, in the case of Everybody Wang Chung, creating fake posts that make it look like I’m posting obnoxious things in the name of my law firm, a different but more damaging thing to my professional status as it is more public.


I just had someone (Darth J) post in my name, as if quoting me.

I really saw no need for FARMS Review to be cluttered with such nonsense, although I agreed with the article’s conclusions. I disagreed with the execution of Gregory L. Smith, “Often in Error, Seldom in Doubt: Rod Meldrum and Book of Mormon DNA,” in FARMS Review 22:1. I disliked it for its imponderable length, verbosity and its lack of editorial control. It was well-organized in the way a textbook might be organized. It was precisely written. But –. . . .


This is part of scholarship, looking at other's work, even when one is in fundamental agreement, but being put off by writing style, form of argument, or tone.

But, he does provide needful analysis of a new medium, the podcast. John Dehlin’s work is a sort of “Festivus for the rest of us” academia; that sort of publication designed for those who don’t like to read.


Which, as Smith points out, Dehlin has admitted he doesn't much like to do. The podcasts are primarily for a post-literate, primarily visual, shorter attention span audience, no? Or is this going too far?

It is a legitimate topic of review and criticism. Given Dehlin’s cult-like status and following, driven by his podcast approach, it is high time that somebody has stepped forward to analyze what he says. And it is a difficult analysis. One cannot do a word search through the written word, or read it on a bus or train with a marking pencil. One must listen to the entire production.


This was something I saw as well; a vast amount of material but not in concise, written form such that a researcher could collate and categorize with any ease.

Smith’s analysis is needful, thorough, insightful and thorough (I repeat this word for effect).


I agree. Though I haven't read the papers you've been critical of, I think I will just to see what you're getting at there.
Last edited by Guest on Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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_Kishkumen
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Re: A Tepid Defense of Gregory Smith

Post by _Kishkumen »

Excellent points, Bot. I lament the fact that thus far the best place to go for any kind of attempt to grapple with Mormon Stories in a scholarly way is Greg Smith's work, which is, as you say, poorly executed. Hopefully someone will pick up the discussion who has a better handle on the sociological theory and lacks the polemical aim.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Everybody Wang Chung
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Re: A Tepid Defense of Gregory Smith

Post by _Everybody Wang Chung »

Yahoo Bot wrote: Or, in the case of Everybody Wang Chung, creating fake posts that make it look like I’m posting obnoxious things in the name of my law firm, a different but more damaging thing to my professional status as it is more public.


Yahoo Bot,

CFR on me "creating fake posts".
"I'm on paid sabbatical from BYU in exchange for my promise to use this time to finish two books."

Daniel C. Peterson, 2014
_Yahoo Bot
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Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:37 pm

Re: A Tepid Defense of Gregory Smith

Post by _Yahoo Bot »

Everybody Wang Chung wrote:
Yahoo Bot wrote: Or, in the case of Everybody Wang Chung, creating fake posts that make it look like I’m posting obnoxious things in the name of my law firm, a different but more damaging thing to my professional status as it is more public.


Yahoo Bot,

CFR on me "creating fake posts".


They were removed when my firm (i.e., myself) made me report them. So, no "R".

Your new tag line is quite appropriate.
_Ludd
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Re: A Tepid Defense of Gregory Smith

Post by _Ludd »

Yahoo Bot wrote:I post on this board again only because I am fearful that I can’t quite get out everything I want on the MAD board, where the moderators label me a “Board Nanny.” Frankly, I don’t know what is worse: Being labeled a “Board Nanny” and having my privileges suspended on particular threads (which, in my libertarian view, is a perfectly legitimate thing for MAD to do; it is a proprietary board; it can set the rules; if you don’t like them then don’t read the board; if you don’t like the looks of the new Ford Mustang GT, then don’t look at it or buy it) or what I endure here, anonymous complaints to my law firm’s management about the things I say here in an effort to have me removed from my professional employment. (I employ myself.) Or, in the case of Everybody Wang Chung, creating fake posts that make it look like I’m posting obnoxious things in the name of my law firm, a different but more damaging thing to my professional status as it is more public.

(I worry somewhat about Everybody Wang Chung. Why isn’t this libelous? “Numerous instances of DCP lying online (Second Watson Letter, etc.) . . . . DCP's deragatory [sic] and offensive comments regarding Gerald Bradford, BYU and the Maxwell Institute, . . . . DCP making light of sacred Jewish marriage practices when he was a tour guide.” Perhaps truth is a defense, but this is my area of practice and I do know that at least the third entry in my list isn’t fair comment; the others may not be either.)

Previously, I’ve expressed rather severe criticism of Greg Smith. Much of these criticisms remain for his two recently published papers. I wrote in July 2012:

As to poorly done, or at least poorly executed, I disagreed with the style and execution of Gregory L. Smith, “Shattered Glass: The Traditions of Mormon Same-Sex Marriage Advocates Encounter Boyd K. Packer” in FARMS Review 23:1. I really saw no need for FARMS Review to be cluttered with such nonsense, although I agreed with the article’s conclusions. I disagreed with the execution of Gregory L. Smith, “Often in Error, Seldom in Doubt: Rod Meldrum and Book of Mormon DNA,” in FARMS Review 22:1. I disliked it for its imponderable length, verbosity and its lack of editorial control. It was well-organized in the way a textbook might be organized. It was precisely written. But –. . . .


My specific prior criticisms of Greg’s work remain. Why isn’t there any fierce editorial control at MI? I recall somewhere that FARM Review was written in a way to help seminary instructors. Well, Smith’s pieces are not that. Running down every single rabbit hole with formulaic writing is not helpful analysis. Formulaic writing is the tedious resort to numbered paragraphs, bullet points, and paragraphs that begin with "First," "Second," and so forth. There's a place for that style; it isn't to be used at every turn and most readers will tire of it quickly.

But, he does provide needful analysis of a new medium, the podcast. John Dehlin’s work is a sort of “Festivus for the rest of us” academia; that sort of publication designed for those who don’t like to read. It is a legitimate topic of review and criticism. Given Dehlin’s cult-like status and following, driven by his podcast approach, it is high time that somebody has stepped forward to analyze what he says. And it is a difficult analysis. One cannot do a word search through the written word, or read it on a bus or train with a marking pencil. One must listen to the entire production.

Smith’s analysis is needful, thorough, insightful and thorough (I repeat this word for effect). I have frequently noted John Dehlin’s manifest misunderstanding of Mormonism, as he frequently admits he doesn’t like to read. I have noted Dehlin’s’ inconsistencies; in one podcast a speaker who has resigned from the Church complains that the Church won’t leave him alone, with frequent invitations to social functions and approaches by home teachers. The next speaker in the podcast, Dehlin himself, complains about being ignored in Church and treated as an outcast.

Where Smith crosses the line is his attempt to assess motivation. I haven’t been a fan of the review tactic of saying that somebody has a “hidden agenda.” I'm just using this phrase as an example, not to say that Smith actually uses it. (Note, that one of my published pieces has a similar phrase; it was an editorial addition. I don’t disavow it but in retrospect I shouldn’t have allowed it.) Trying to assess a hidden agenda is what Smith does; he seeks for the nefarious motivation. Dehlin may have a hidden agenda and a nefarious motive, but Smith's discussion of it is not really “fair comment” and should be avoided in any review. Indeed, First Amendment and libel law, which I could cite, generally looks to whether a reviewer deviates from the four corners of published material. The Interpreter should not allow such statements in its publication. A review should be of the four corners of the published material, and there is much about which to criticize Dehlin. Much.

I don’t see the big deal about criticizing Smith for citing deleted material. It is in the public domain. It is fair game.

Smith’s second piece, the “Unread” piece, is interesting and informative to me, but it is unnecessary sniping against the Maxwell Institute. I have long been on record as questioning Dr. Hamblin’s (and to a much lesser extent, Dr. Peterson’s) published statements about the reorganization of the Maxwell Institute. I think it is fairly apparent to the masses who read (as opposed to those who listen to podcasts) that the reorganization of MI has the ratification of BYU’s administration, if not the prior imprimatur. So, it isn’t nice to continually attack and criticize my alma mater on such trivial things.

In summary, Smith’s pieces are filled with helpful information but they are rather poorly executed. The second piece is filled with helpful information for those interested in a rather silly and needless piece of history. I would liken the second piece to an 80-page history of my homeowner’s association.


I admit I only carefully read about half of the now famous "hit-piece". I just scanned through the rest of it. As you said, it was certainly "thorough". To the point of overkill. With a nuclear arsenal. As one of MDB's favorite apologists might say, Smith gave Dehlin "The Dresden Treatment". But like the WWII bombing raid, I think Smith could have gotten his point across with about 1% of the incendiary bombs he dropped on what was just an obscure website until the "defenders of the faith" turned Dehlin into a folk hero.

One can only hope that the editors at the Mormon Interpreter blog will see fit to "cut the fat" from Smith's article, which if they do will reduce the paper's size down to about a dozen pages or so. (Smith seems like one of those people we all know who just can't seem to resist the urge to say in a hundred words what could be just as well said in ten.)
_Cicero
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Re: A Tepid Defense of Gregory Smith

Post by _Cicero »

Yahoo Bot wrote:The second piece is filled with helpful information for those interested in a rather silly and needless piece of history. I would liken the second piece to an 80-page history of my homeowner’s association.


That's the best succinct summary of the second piece that I've seen.
_sock puppet
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Re: A Tepid Defense of Gregory Smith

Post by _sock puppet »

Yahoo Bot wrote:In summary, Smith’s pieces are filled with helpful information but they are rather poorly executed. The second piece is filled with helpful information for those interested in a rather silly and needless piece of history. I would liken the second piece to an 80-page history of my homeowner’s association.

Ahh, isn't that exactly what a good, well-grounded editorial board and peer review process at a periodical publication are for? To clear the clutter, leaving any nuggets of value in the piece to be published? Mr. Bot's analysis here is quite the indictment against the prior claims of the OMIDs that NAMIRS and the Review in particularly performed a scholarly editorial process to assure the quality of output printed on the pages of the Review.
_Everybody Wang Chung
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Re: A Tepid Defense of Gregory Smith

Post by _Everybody Wang Chung »

Yahoo Bot wrote:
They were removed when my firm (i.e., myself) made me report them. So, no "R".

Your new tag line is quite appropriate.


Yahoo Bot,

Let me get this straight. My alleged "fake posts" were removed once your firm made you report them? That's beyond ridiculous, Yahoo.

You know as well as I do that there were never any "fake posts". Hence, my CFR.

I don't think your response to my CFR says much for your character.
"I'm on paid sabbatical from BYU in exchange for my promise to use this time to finish two books."

Daniel C. Peterson, 2014
_Kishkumen
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Re: A Tepid Defense of Gregory Smith

Post by _Kishkumen »

Everybody Wang Chung wrote:I don't think your response to my CFR says much for your character.


He does have an odd, and particularly unfunny, sense of humor when it comes to making such accusations.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
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