Response to Hamblin

[_Kishkumen]

Good Lord Lou, would you leave the man alone already.

The classic-FARMS crew has a real thing for Grant Palmer.

[Guest]

Some may have heard that an agnostic French King once said that "Paris is worth a Mass." With this in mind, I am a bit troubled, actually very disappointed, by the comments in support of John on his own website. I still hold out hope.

did this guy really think that smith's piece would be posted on an obscure website, and then miraculously dehlin would have no support on his own website?

there are almost no words. no words for explaining why i chose to have participate in a dialogue with these guys. it is madness. equally, no words to explain how another person, in the name of god and in defense of the kingdom, is publicly disappointed that they would have any support in a brutal time of their life.

the church lost a great opportunity. they could have actually tried to figure out why people were actually leaving, and done something positive. but, they chose to have apologists write about authors, producers and writers with hopes that every doubt/question would be met with the an answer that the church liked. it is not working.

as long as these guys are disappointed when someone gets support, even on their own website, they will further marginalize themselves from the real conversations that will happen.

the oddest thing, is that this phrase is about conversion. the french people know their leaders would swing from religion to religion depending on the political benefit. that is what this phrase is about. when a king didn't like the pope, he just built a palais des papes with a bridge in avignon. so they wouldn't just convert to another faith, they would buy another pope.

it is really confusing to even know what midgley is talking about. dehlin 'converted' back to the church that midgley belongs. is he hoping that dehlin's kingness, now in the Mormon church, would immediately convert his subjects back to Mormonism?

madness.

[_Jason Bourne]

You may be surprised to find that the LDS leaders will pay much more attention to Dehlin's study than they do to the apologists that want to demonize him.

[_Mayan Elephant]

You may be surprised to find that the LDS leaders will pay much more attention to Dehlin's study than they do to the apologists that want to demonize him.

i have no doubt about that. none. which is maddening even more, jason. the study is flawed. very flawed. and a good review, or counter study, would have been a huuuuuuuuuuuuge hit on the internet, in the university, and on north temple across from the world's holiest mall.

i think smith and his boys know they will not be getting an attaboy from the brethren for this piece.

[_Kishkumen]

You may be surprised to find that the LDS leaders will pay much more attention to Dehlin's study than they do to the apologists that want to demonize him.

i have no doubt about that. none. which is maddening even more, jason. the study is flawed. very flawed. and a good review, or counter study, would have been a huuuuuuuuuuuuge hit on the internet, in the university, and on north temple across from the world's holiest mall.

i think smith and his boys know they will not be getting an attaboy from the brethren for this piece.

My prediction is that the classic-FARMS crew will stick around, but be ever less relevant to what goes on in SLC. No, the real strides in meeting the needs of struggling members will be met elsewhere. The LDS is willing to do what it takes to keep the members in. The are much more pragmatic in that way than the classic-FARMS crew.

[Guest]

Some may have heard that an agnostic French King once said that "Paris is worth a Mass."

So Huguenots and Catholics are agnostics. I have much to learn at the feet of Dr. Louis Midgley.

The usual quote, although its historicity is disputed, is "Paris is well worth a Mass" allegedly declared when King Henry IV finally declared for Catholicism thus rallying the Catholic forces and taking Paris to secure his crown. While the good king might have had trouble making up his mind about denominational issues, I see no evidence that he was luke warm as to the actual existance of the Christian God.

[_Mayan Elephant]

My prediction is that the classic-FARMS crew will stick around, but be ever less relevant to what goes on in Salt Lake City. No, the real strides in meeting the needs of struggling members will be met elsewhere. The LDS is willing to do what it takes to keep the members in. The are much more pragmatic in that way than the classic-FARMS crew.

i mostly agree with that. i think they will stick around for now. i think any further evidence of the harm they are doing will bring a heisman trophy posed stiff arm from the suits. i am late to scratch's and your history with these dudes. but from what i gather, the tempest went way beyond the teapot. i think bradford was directed in his actions. if he was not, he was insightful or at least wise enough to see what was about to be tagged to the church and to the university and he shoved it out the door. it was clumsy, based on what i have collected in the last few weeks. but it was perhaps the best thing i have seen from the maxwell house.

where i disagree, i do not think the suits would do anything to keep the members in. i think they are juggling their own reputations and any review of their past presentations of the history of the church and themselves. i think they would rather lose a lot of members before they admit that the book of abraham is a fraud and also agree to speak publicly about joseph smith's strange marriages. (i am using the most juvenile examples.) they do not seem as concerned about the facts, as they are about themselves. the pain of losing members is not enough to motivate them to really address what members are tackling.

i think this will not change for a key reason: the quorum of the fifteen are life members. they will hold the line until they die. after all, it is their own words, reputations, and public life at stake. they will not reverse a course they have made for themselves. there is no opportunity to bring someone in that could really tell the truth about the members or the history. and, this til death tenure offers no risk to them of having someone come in and tell a different story, because they control the leadership up to the point of their own death. even bednar, who is young and seems to be a logical survivor, will be too steeped in the apologists' and old boys' logic to reverse course.

[_Cicero]

madness.

Yup

[_Kishkumen]

i mostly agree with that. i think they will stick around for now. i think any further evidence of the harm they are doing will bring a heisman trophy posed stiff arm from the suits. i am late to scratch's and your history with these dudes. but from what i gather, the tempest went way beyond the teapot. i think bradford was directed in his actions. if he was not, he was insightful or at least wise enough to see what was about to be tagged to the church and to the university and he shoved it out the door. it was clumsy, based on what i have collected in the last few weeks. but it was perhaps the best thing i have seen from the maxwell house.

Here's my view: The Church wants BYU to be a place for academics, not para-ecclesiastical pastoring. The university is changing for the better. My prediction is that moving forward BYU will be increasingly academic in all areas, and less an environment for religious squabbles. Professors will be too busy keeping up with publications in their fields to concern themselves with online fights with critics, or witch hunts in their own numbers. They also will have less time to heckle apostates at book signings.

You can view this as positive or not. I view it as positive because I feel invested in the future of BYU as one of its alumni, and one who holds not one, but two degrees from the university.

I am not looking at this as a slackening of BYU's religious/spiritual mission of being a decent environment in which to educate the rising generation. I am looking at it as that spiritual place, plus more academic focus and less noise like classic-FARMS. Guys like the FARMS crew will have to do this on their own time. Younger faculty won't have any time to keep up with such time-consuming and destructive hobbies.

[_Yahoo Bot]

Yer correct. Wheras I enjoyed old FARMS Review I could not see it continuing before the conservative elements pulled the plug. I am surprised that there has been so much venom about it. People I have admired have fallen a few notches. I see efforts to injure BYU and the church.

I once told my grandfather who was a BYU President for one year that I was interested in getting a degree in history with an emphasis in church history. He was not the type to take strong positions but he took a strong position with me. It was not BYU's mission to mint scholars in religion or church history. Just CES educators. He told me to stay out. And so I knew later that what FARMS ended up being would not likely have church support although for a time it seemed it did. Now I know it does not, and when Smith issued his paper he must have known that it might not be met with smiling faces at COB.