Bazooka: The Significance of Don Bradley's work

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_Kevin Graham
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Re: Bazooka: The Significance of Don Bradley's work

Post by _Kevin Graham »

Thanks for reminding us of that link Hono... I am not sure I ever saw it before. But I'll comment on a couple of things Don said back then:

Watch the video, Jon, and tell me honestly that it did not demolish the critical argument based on Joseph's translation from the Kinderhook plates: "Only a bogus prophet translates bogus plates."


Well, I'll go ahead and say it. :)

That's exactly the point, Thews--that he wasn't translating this with the help of God. He was comparing similar characters, which is simply a human thing, not a revelatory thing.


Then how do you explain the fact that the two characters, though similar, were not identical, and also, the two translations were similar, but also not identical? You have to account for the difference in "degrees" between the two characters, as you noticed one "boat" was deeper than the other. How would Joseph Smith know how to translate it just a little bit differently, based on the slightest variation in the curvature of the boat? The Hebrew and Greek Lexicons wouldn't tell him that. That is something he would have to produce via revelation, and everyone who knew him knew that is how he translated these things. He offered an off the cuff translation describing the origins of the papyri when they were first presented to him and he did so without benefit of lexicons. So his reason for requesting a lexicon in this instance must have been for a different reason.

Remember, with the KPs he employed a lexicon (EAG) that he himself created by revelation. Is that how conventional translations are done? No. So I don't see it as such a slam dunk that revelation be completely excluded. For one thing if revelation were completely excluded, you'd expect to get some kind of eye-witness confusion as to why that would be so. Why the "Prophet, Seer, and Revelator" would neglect to translate something using the same method he had always used with previous ancient documents.

And are we to believe Joseph Smith called for his EAG because he presupposed every single character found on the KPs would have been accounted for therein? Of course not. And yet the "Gentile" said he would be able to translate all the plates. Perhaps he would have to force other characters to match some variant of EAG character, but either way he would still have to produce a translation using revelation to account for those variations.

The difference is that the new argument you offer above looks at Joseph Smith's Kinderhook plates translation as part of a pattern of fraud, rather than using it as primary evidence of the alleged fraud, which is what the old project does. In other words, if one doesn't already hold with you that Joseph Smith is a fraud, one can't conclude it merely from his application of the GAEL to the Kinderhook plates


Sure we can. If you don't believe me, then go find any number of people who know absolutely nothing about Joseph Smith or the history of the KPs, and then explain it all to them and see what they say. In truth, only a Mormon could allow so much leeway for a self-professing prophet not to know when he is being presented with a hoax. The overriding assumption is that there is really no error for which a true prophet can engage, that would invalidate his claim of being a prophet. Why? Because Mormons have memorized the phrase, "a prophet is only a prophet when acting as such," which was coined by, (surprise!) a man professing to be a prophet. Gee, ya think this might be by design? So no matter what he does wrong, all you have to do is whip out that phrase and all is forgiven. He's still God's chosen prophet.
_sock puppet
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Re: Bazooka: The Significance of Don Bradley's work

Post by _sock puppet »

I come to Book of Abraham 1:1-3. Chris Smith quite persuasively makes the case for these canonized LDS scriptures being dependent on an existing Egyptian Alphabet or at least interdependent on an Egyptian Alphabet being developed concurrently with the development of those 3 verses.

Does that fact that there was the 'human' Egyptian Alphabet being used or developed mean that there was no divine inspiration involved in those canonized LDS scriptures?

That seems to be the conclusion if one accepts that because the GAEL was used in translating the boat-shaped grapheme JSJr spotted in a character on the KPs, that it must have been translation sans revelation.
_honorentheos
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Re: Bazooka: The Significance of Don Bradley's work

Post by _honorentheos »

sock puppet wrote:I come to Book of Abraham 1:1-3. Chris Smith quite persuasively makes the case for these canonized LDS scriptures being dependent on an existing Egyptian Alphabet or at least interdependent on an Egyptian Alphabet being developed concurrently with the development of those 3 verses.

Does that fact that there was the 'human' Egyptian Alphabet being used or developed mean that there was no divine inspiration involved in those canonized LDS scriptures?

That seems to be the conclusion if one accepts that because the GAEL was used in translating the boat-shaped grapheme JSJr spotted in a character on the KPs, that it must have been translation sans revelation.

I think how one answers depends on one's view of Joseph Smith.

Regarding your second paragraph, for example: If I believed that Joseph Smith was inspired of God to create the Book of Abraham I might believe that the GAEL was the product of Joseph Smith trying to reverse engineer how his inspired writings related to the glyphs or figures.

With that in mind, I think Don's argument might make sense within the LDS worldview and does undermine the stronger version of the Kinderhook Plates critique. That being, a Mormon could see the limited translation aligning with this hypothetical example:

Suppose a person who is interested in Mayan hieroglyphs has a document that shows translations related to various symbols and this person is given a text with symbols on it. Using their Mayan "dictionary", they recognize a parallel between a symbol on the text and one in the dictionary and provide the "translation". However, after further examination none of the other symbols match causing the amateur to determine that the text is not Mayan in origin.

An expert in Mayan would probably recognize this immediately. Joseph Smith, in the context of current apologetics, was not an expert on Egyptian but merely the conduit for divine communication.

Within this view, Don's presentation helps create space for Mormon apologists relative to the Kinderhook plates.

I still contend that by doing so it creates other, more important issues for the believer, but that's another matter.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa
_sock puppet
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Re: Bazooka: The Significance of Don Bradley's work

Post by _sock puppet »

honorentheos wrote:
sock puppet wrote:I come to Book of Abraham 1:1-3. Chris Smith quite persuasively makes the case for these canonized LDS scriptures being dependent on an existing Egyptian Alphabet or at least interdependent on an Egyptian Alphabet being developed concurrently with the development of those 3 verses.

Does that fact that there was the 'human' Egyptian Alphabet being used or developed mean that there was no divine inspiration involved in those canonized LDS scriptures?

That seems to be the conclusion if one accepts that because the GAEL was used in translating the boat-shaped grapheme JSJr spotted in a character on the KPs, that it must have been translation sans revelation.

I think how one answers depends on one's view of Joseph Smith.

Regarding your second paragraph, for example: If I believed that Joseph Smith was inspired of God to create the Book of Abraham I might believe that the GAEL was the product of Joseph Smith trying to reverse engineer how his inspired writings related to the glyphs or figures.

With that in mind, I think Don's argument might make sense within the LDS worldview and does undermine the stronger version of the Kinderhook Plates critique. That being, a Mormon could see the limited translation aligning with this hypothetical example:

Suppose a person who is interested in Mayan hieroglyphs has a document that shows translations related to various symbols and this person is given a text with symbols on it. Using their Mayan "dictionary", they recognize a parallel between a symbol on the text and one in the dictionary and provide the "translation". However, after further examination none of the other symbols match causing the amateur to determine that the text is not Mayan in origin.

An expert in Mayan would probably recognize this immediately. Joseph Smith, in the context of current apologetics, was not an expert on Egyptian but merely the conduit for divine communication.

Within this view, Don's presentation helps create space for Mormon apologists relative to the Kinderhook plates.

I still contend that by doing so it creates other, more important issues for the believer, but that's another matter.

The problem with that is Chris Smith's compelling argument that Book of Abraham 1:1-3 did not precede the development of the GAEL. The HoC includes entries in July 1835, the month that the mummies were bought from Chandler, about working on the alphabet. Chris shows that the GAEL was not derived from Book of Abraham, but Book of Abraham 1:1-3 either derived from the GAEL, or at best for defenders, concurrently developed. That sort of shuts the door on that 'space'.
_Fence Sitter
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Re: Bazooka: The Significance of Don Bradley's work

Post by _Fence Sitter »

honorentheos wrote:
sock puppet wrote:I come to Book of Abraham 1:1-3. Chris Smith quite persuasively makes the case for these canonized LDS scriptures being dependent on an existing Egyptian Alphabet or at least interdependent on an Egyptian Alphabet being developed concurrently with the development of those 3 verses.

Does that fact that there was the 'human' Egyptian Alphabet being used or developed mean that there was no divine inspiration involved in those canonized LDS scriptures?

That seems to be the conclusion if one accepts that because the GAEL was used in translating the boat-shaped grapheme JSJr spotted in a character on the KPs, that it must have been translation sans revelation.

I think how one answers depends on one's view of Joseph Smith.

Regarding your second paragraph, for example: If I believed that Joseph Smith was inspired of God to create the Book of Abraham I might believe that the GAEL was the product of Joseph Smith trying to reverse engineer how his inspired writings related to the glyphs or figures.

With that in mind, I think Don's argument might make sense within the LDS worldview and does undermine the stronger version of the Kinderhook Plates critique. That being, a Mormon could see the limited translation aligning with this hypothetical example:

Suppose a person who is interested in Mayan hieroglyphs has a document that shows translations related to various symbols and this person is given a text with symbols on it. Using their Mayan "dictionary", they recognize a parallel between a symbol on the text and one in the dictionary and provide the "translation". However, after further examination none of the other symbols match causing the amateur to determine that the text is not Mayan in origin.

An expert in Mayan would probably recognize this immediately. Joseph Smith, in the context of current apologetics, was not an expert on Egyptian but merely the conduit for divine communication.

Within this view, Don's presentation helps create space for Mormon apologists relative to the Kinderhook plates.

I still contend that by doing so it creates other, more important issues for the believer, but that's another matter.



Hi Honor!

Why stop in the middle (more likely at the beginning) of the divine translation of the Book of Abraham, not even taking the time to write down all that currently was known of the Book of Joseph, to spend a significant amount of time on a tedious, ill conceived production of a secular lexicon for Egyptian?
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_honorentheos
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Re: Bazooka: The Significance of Don Bradley's work

Post by _honorentheos »

Fence Sitter wrote:Hi Honor!

Why stop in the middle (more likely at the beginning) of the divine translation of the Book of Abraham, not even taking the time to write down all that currently was known of the Book of Joseph, to spend a significant amount of time on a tedious, ill conceived production of a secular lexicon for Egyptian?

Hi Fence Sitter

That's a good question.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa
_honorentheos
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Re: Bazooka: The Significance of Don Bradley's work

Post by _honorentheos »

sock puppet wrote:The problem with that is Chris Smith's compelling argument that Book of Abraham 1:1-3 did not precede the development of the GAEL. The HoC includes entries in July 1835, the month that the mummies were bought from Chandler, about working on the alphabet. Chris shows that the GAEL was not derived from Book of Abraham, but Book of Abraham 1:1-3 either derived from the GAEL, or at best for defenders, concurrently developed. That sort of shuts the door on that 'space'.

Hi sock,

I'm not familiar enough with Chris' argument to be able to comment. It may be that it creates real problems for Don's ideas. What I posted above is my attempt at placing myself in a believing Mormon's shoes relative to Don's presentation and asking how well it might work to disarm the Kinderhook criticisms. While I didn't think it fully resolved the question of why a divinely guided prophet would attempt even a secular translation of fraudulent plates (just as modern bishops seem to have little real spirit of discernment), it did seem possible that a believing member could accept it as an explaination for where the translated text came from. In that sense, while no critic is likely to be pursuaded by it, it seems any critic interested in persuading believers has to adjust tactics because of Don's research.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa
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