A brief account of JSJr's 'Egyptian Alphabet' and Grammar

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_sock puppet
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A brief account of JSJr's 'Egyptian Alphabet' and Grammar

Post by _sock puppet »

In May 1835, with with Phelps wrote a letter to his wife. In that letter, Phelps included a table entitled "specimen of the pure language" that incorporated "explanations" text from JSJr's previous "revelations". As with the GAEL begun two months later, characters were listed by Phelps in the 'specimen' in the left-hand column, sounds in the next one, and then explanations in the right-hand column. Phelps had used JSJr's March 1832 Q&A on the 'pure language' in preparing the "specimen of the pure language" table.

Just two months later...
HoC, v2, Ch XVI wrote:On the 3rd of July [1835], Michael H. Chandler came to Kirtland to exhibit some Egyptian mummies. There were four human figures, together with some two or more rolls of papyrus covered with hieroglyphic figures and devices. As Mr. Chandler had been told I could translate them, he brought me some of the characters, and I gave him the interpretation, and like a gentleman, he gave me the following certificate:

KIRTLAND, July 6, 1835. This is to make known to all who may be desirous, concerning the knowledge of Mr. Joseph Smith, Jun., in deciphering the ancient Egyptian hieroglyphic characters in my possession,
which I have, in many eminent cities, showed to the most learned; and, from the information that I could ever learn, or meet with, I and that of Mr. Joseph Smith, Jun., to correspond in the most minute matters. MICHAEL H. CHANDLER,
Traveling with, and proprietor of, Egyptian mummies.

Sunday 5.--I preached in the afternoon. Michael H. Barton tried to get into the Church, but he was not willing to confess and forsake all his sins--and he was rejected.

Soon after this, some of the Saints at Kirtland purchased the mummies and papyrus, a description of which will appear hereafter, and with with. with. Phelps and Oliver Cowdery as scribes, I commenced the translation of some of the characters or hieroglyphics, and much to our joy found that one of the rolls contained the writings of Abraham, another the writings of Joseph of Egypt, etc.,--a more full account of which will appear in its place, as I proceed to examine or unfold them. Truly we can say, the Lord is beginning to reveal the abundance of peace and truth.

This is similar to how after translating just a character grapheme from the Kinderhook Plates almost 8 years later that the GAEL key indicated to be referring to descendant of Ham, JSJr was recorded by his diarist William Clayton as those plates including a 'history' of such Ham descendant and was recorded by apostle Parley P Pratt as those plates including a 'genealogy' all the way back to Ham.

HoC, v2, Ch XVII wrote:Sunday, 19th [July 1835].--Our public meeting was attended by more than a thousand people, and during our conference nine were baptized. ORSON HYDE, Walmart. E. M'LELLIN, Clerks.

The remainder of this month, I was continually engaged in translating an alphabet to the Book of Abraham, and arranging a grammar of the Egyptian language as practiced by the ancients.


The production of the alphabet itself was an act of 'translation.'

And Chris Smith makes a strong case that this alphabet and grammar preceded, or was at least developed concurrently with, the development of the Book of Abraham 1:1-3 text.

HoC, v2, Ch XXI wrote:I was at home on the 30th [September 1835], and was visited by many who came to inquire after the work of the Lord.

This afternoon I labored on the Egyptian alphabet, in company with Brothers Oliver Cowdery and with. with. Phelps, and during the research, the principles of astronomy as understood by Father Abraham and the ancients unfolded to our understanding, the particulars of which will appear hereafter.

It was while laboring on the alphabet, and during that research, that Abraham's astronomy was 'unfolded' to JSJr's, Cowdery's and Phelps' understanding. The particulars did appear later: Abraham's astronomy is set forth in Book of Abraham 3. This shows that the alphabet was not merely a human derivation, a reverse engineering from the revealed text of Book of Abraham; the alphabet constitutes 'work papers' from which their laboring on and researching led to the 'unfolding to their understanding', revelation of Abraham's astronomy that then later appeared, i.e., as Book of Abraham 3. This defies the apologetic claim that the GAEL was merely a human derivative, reverse engineered from a divinely inspired text known as the Book of Abraham.

HoC, v2, Ch XXI wrote:This afternoon [October 7, 1835] I re-commenced translating the ancient records.


JSJr exhibited the alphabet to strengthen the faith of others, such as Erastus Holmes, who had been excommunicated from the Methodist Church for accepting Mormon Elders into his home.
HoC, v2, Ch XXI wrote:Saturday, 14 [November 1835].-- * * * This afternoon, Erastus Holmes, of Newbury, Ohio, called on me to inquire about the establishment of the Church, and to be instructed in doctrine more perfectly.

I gave him a brief relation of my experience while in my juvenile years, say from six years old up to the time I received my first vision, which was when I was about fourteen years old; also the revelations that I
received afterwards concerning the Book of Mormon, and a short account of the rise and progress of the Church up to this date.

Tuesday 17 [November 1835].--Exhibited the alphabet of the ancient records, to Mr. Holmes, and some others. Went with him to Frederick G. Williams', to see the mummies. We then took the parting hand, and he started for home, being strong in the faith of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and determined to obey its requirements.


HoC, v2, Ch XXIII wrote:At home in the morning. Weather warm and rainy. We spent the day [November 20, 1835] in translating, and made rapid progress.
* * *
In the afternoon [of November 24, 1835] we translated some of the Egyptian records.
* * *
Wednesday, 25 [November 1835].--Spent the day in translating. * * *

Thursday, 26 [November 1835].--Spent the day in translating Egyptian characters from the papyrus, though severely afflicted with a cold.


HoC, v2, Ch XXV wrote:Thursday, 31 [December 1835],--* * *
In the afternoon I attended at the chapel to give directions concerning the upper rooms, and more especially the west room, which I intend occupying for a translating room, which will be prepared this week.


HoC, v2, Ch XXVI wrote:We are occupying the
translating room for the use of the school, until another room can be prepared. It is the west room in the upper part of the Temple, and was consecrated this morning by prayer, offered up by Father Smith. This is the first day [January 4, 1836] we have occupied it.


HoC, v2, Ch XXVIII wrote:Tuesday, 16 [February 1835].--Attended school at the usual hour. Resumed our translating, and made rapid progress. Many called to see the House of the Lord, and the Egyptian manuscript, and to visit me.


Many references to translating Hebrew, particularly chapters of the Old Testament, but the Egyptian translation next mentioned months later:
HoC, v2, Ch XXXVI wrote:[November 2, 1836]The Church in Kirtland voted to sanction the appointment of Brother Phinehas Richards and Reuben Hedlock by the Presidency, to transact business for the Church in procuring means to translate and print the records taken from the Catacombs of Egypt, then in the Temple.


HoC, v3, Ch III wrote:Saturday, 12 [May 1838].-- President Rigdon and myself attended the High Council
for the purpose of presenting for their consideration some business relating to our pecuniary concerns.

We stated to the Council our situation, as to maintaining our families, and the relation we now stand in to the Church, spending as we have for eight years, our time, talents, and property, in the service of
the Church: and being reduced as it were to beggary, and being still detained in the business and service of the Church, it appears necessary that something should be done for the support of our families by the
Church, or else we must do it by our own labors; and if the Church say to us, "Help yourselves," we will thank them and immediately do so; but if the Church say, "Serve us," some provision must be made for our
sustenance.

The Council investigated the matter, and instructed the Bishop to make over to President Joseph Smith, Jun., and Sidney Rigdon, each an eighty-acre lot of land from the property of the Church, situated adjacent to the city corporation; also appointed three of their number, viz., George with. Harris, Elias Higbee and Simeon Carter, a committee to confer with said Presidency, and satisfy them for their services the present year; not for preaching, or for receiving the word of God by revelation, neither for instructing the Saints in righteousness, but for services rendered in the printing establishment, in translating the ancient
records, etc., etc.
Said committee agreed that Presidents Smith and Rigdon should receive $1,100 each as a just remuneration for their services this
year.

HoC, v4, Ch VII wrote:Memorial of Joseph Smith, Jun., to the high Council of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, June 18th, 1840. The Memorial of Joseph Smith, Jun., respectfully represents--That * * * Under the then existing circumstances, your Memorialist had necessarily to engage in the
temporalities of the Church, which he has had to attend to until the present time:--That your Memorialist feels it a duty which he owes to God,
as well as to the Church, to give his attention more particularly to those things connected with the spiritual welfare of the Saints, (which have now become a great people,) so that they may be built up in their most holy
faith, and go on to perfection:--That the Church have erected an office where he can attend to the affairs of the Church without distraction, he thinks, and verily believes, that the time has now come, when he should devote himself exclusively to those things which relate to the spiritualities of the Church, and commence the work of translating the Egyptian records, the Bible, and wait upon the Lord for such revelations as may be suited to the conditions and circumstances of the Church. And in order that he may be enabled to attend to those things, he prays your honorable body will relieve him from the anxiety and trouble necessarily attendant on business transactions, by appointing some one to take charge of the city plot, and attend to the business transactions which have heretofore rested upon your Memorialist: That should your Honors deem it proper to do so, your Memorialist would respectfully suggest that he would have no means of support whatever, and therefore would request that some one might be appointed to see that all his necessary wants may be provided for, as well as sufficient means or appropriations for a clerk or clerks, which he may require to aid him in his important work.


On March 1, 1842, the Book of Abraham was published in the Times and Seasons.

April 19, 1842: the Greek Psalter fiasco, where JSJr proclaimed an old book to be a "Dictionary of Ancient Egyptian Hieroglyphics", but then secreted himself from the scene when Caswall explained to the assembled that it was just a centuries old Greek Psalter. Not Egyptian.

April - June, 1843, the GAEL is used by JSJr to translate a boat-shaped grapheme in a character on the Kinderhook Plates.

HoC, v6, Ch IV wrote:Wednesday, 15 [November 1843].--Mayor's court in the office. "Erskine versus Pullen." Nonsuit.

P. M. At the office. Suggested the idea of preparing a grammar of the Egyptian language.
_Equality
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Re: A brief account of JSJr's 'Egyptian Alphabet' and Gramma

Post by _Equality »

And Don Bradley's response is . . . silence.
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_DonBradley
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Re: A brief account of JSJr's 'Egyptian Alphabet' and Gramma

Post by _DonBradley »

Sock Puppet,

I won't be participating on the thread, but you've done a nice job of assembling some of the sources on the chronology.

Chris Smith has written, in draft form, a chronology of the Kirtland translation efforts on the Alphabet documents and the Book of Abraham. And he and others, such as John Gee, have debated the issue quite a bit. My own research on this chronology focuses on the Book of Abraham translation work done during the Nauvoo period.

Don
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Re: A brief account of JSJr's 'Egyptian Alphabet' and Gramma

Post by _DonBradley »

And Don Bradley's response is . . . silence.


Though I know I must seem shamefully derelict in obeying the commandment that I respond to every post that anonymous fellow discussants have decreed I should spend my time on, I hold back out of charity. How else would they be able to declare hollow victories when I don't score in a game I was never playing?

Just look at the triumphant glee I inspired by not responding within half an hour to a lengthy post I didn't know was coming, on a topic I expressed no interest in posting on.

Seriously, man, I hate the polemical game-playing and grandstanding, as well as the pressure to either spend my time posting on topics someone else has chosen as a priority for me or have my understanding declared nil and my faith declared fraudulent. I'm a historian, not a professional message-board poster. My analysis of the evidence on the Book of Abraham, Book of Mormon, First Vision, priesthood restoration, polygamy--everything--will be given as I complete papers for presentation and publication, not when someone wants a good online fight.

There's not necessarily anything wrong with such debate, and some (such as Kevin) seem to thrive on it, but since I neither enjoy it nor find it important relative to others things I could be doing, it's a very low priority for me--which means you'll rarely find me choosing to join in.

My frustration about this sort of thing is nothing against you, Equality. I find insight in some of your posts, and really appreciated the kind things you had to say in the thread about the Tribune story. Even in the anonymous Internet environment you come across as a real human being--something not every poster does.

I just find the polemics in these venues to be sometimes galling. I'm happier, and far more productive, when I just do my work and let the message boards run on their own. So that's what I'm going to go back to doing.

Regards,

Don
_Bazooka
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Re: A brief account of JSJr's 'Egyptian Alphabet' and Gramma

Post by _Bazooka »

Sock, forgive me.

I know the timeline scuppers a number of things but I'm being "blonde" today.
Please can you summarise the ramifications?
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
_Bazooka
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Re: A brief account of JSJr's 'Egyptian Alphabet' and Gramma

Post by _Bazooka »

DonBradley wrote:
And Don Bradley's response is . . . silence.


Though I know I must seem shamefully derelict in obeying the commandment that I respond to every post that anonymous fellow discussants have decreed I should spend my time on, I hold back out of charity. How else would they be able to declare hollow victories when I don't score in a game I was never playing?

Just look at the triumphant glee I inspired by not responding within half an hour to a lengthy post I didn't know was coming, on a topic I expressed no interest in posting on.

Seriously, man, I hate the polemical game-playing and grandstanding, as well as the pressure to either spend my time posting on topics someone else has chosen as a priority for me or have my understanding declared nil and my faith declared fraudulent. I'm a historian, not a professional message-board poster. My analysis of the evidence on the Book of Abraham, Book of Mormon, First Vision, priesthood restoration, polygamy--everything--will be given as I complete papers for presentation and publication, not when someone wants a good online fight.

There's not necessarily anything wrong with such debate, and some (such as Kevin) seem to thrive on it, but since I neither enjoy it nor find it important relative to others things I could be doing, it's a very low priority for me--which means you'll rarely find me choosing to join in.

My frustration about this sort of thing is nothing against you, Equality. I find insight in some of your posts, and really appreciated the kind things you had to say in the thread about the Tribune story. Even in the anonymous Internet environment you come across as a real human being--something not every poster does.

I just find the polemics in these venues to be sometimes galling. I'm happier, and far more productive, when I just do my work and let the message boards run on their own. So that's what I'm going to go back to doing.

Regards,

Don


Don, it's a shame you're such a delicate fellow.
It's also a shame you haven't got an opinion on this timeline, especially given it's relevance to your work with the Kinderhook symbol.
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
_robuchan
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Re: A brief account of JSJr's 'Egyptian Alphabet' and Gramma

Post by _robuchan »

DonBradley wrote:
And Don Bradley's response is . . . silence.


Though I know I must seem shamefully derelict in obeying the commandment that I respond to every post that anonymous fellow discussants have decreed I should spend my time on, I hold back out of charity. How else would they be able to declare hollow victories when I don't score in a game I was never playing?

Just look at the triumphant glee I inspired by not responding within half an hour to a lengthy post I didn't know was coming, on a topic I expressed no interest in posting on.

Seriously, man, I hate the polemical game-playing and grandstanding, as well as the pressure to either spend my time posting on topics someone else has chosen as a priority for me or have my understanding declared nil and my faith declared fraudulent. I'm a historian, not a professional message-board poster. My analysis of the evidence on the Book of Abraham, Book of Mormon, First Vision, priesthood restoration, polygamy--everything--will be given as I complete papers for presentation and publication, not when someone wants a good online fight.

There's not necessarily anything wrong with such debate, and some (such as Kevin) seem to thrive on it, but since I neither enjoy it nor find it important relative to others things I could be doing, it's a very low priority for me--which means you'll rarely find me choosing to join in.

My frustration about this sort of thing is nothing against you, Equality. I find insight in some of your posts, and really appreciated the kind things you had to say in the thread about the Tribune story. Even in the anonymous Internet environment you come across as a real human being--something not every poster does.

I just find the polemics in these venues to be sometimes galling. I'm happier, and far more productive, when I just do my work and let the message boards run on their own. So that's what I'm going to go back to doing.

Regards,

Don


Good response.
_wayfarer
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Re: A brief account of JSJr's 'Egyptian Alphabet' and Gramma

Post by _wayfarer »

DonBradley wrote:I just find the polemics in these venues to be sometimes galling. I'm happier, and far more productive, when I just do my work and let the message boards run on their own. So that's what I'm going to go back to doing.

Here, here!

Don -- keep up the good work -- it's a phenomenal waste of time to debate on these boards.
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Re: A brief account of JSJr's 'Egyptian Alphabet' and Gramma

Post by _ZelphtheGreat »

And all the Egyptologists and the Smithsonian Museum still hide what must be true - that they are secretly using the book to translate Egyptian.

They won't admit it publicly but true believers know they really do use it in secret because Joseph was a true Prophet, right?
“If paying tithing means that you can’t pay for water or electricity, pay tithing. If paying tithing means that you can’t pay your rent, pay tithing. Even if paying tithing means that you don’t have enough money to feed your family, pay tithing." Ensign/2012/12
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Re: A brief account of JSJr's 'Egyptian Alphabet' and Gramma

Post by _wayfarer »

As I read sock puppet's research -- and thanks for providing it, SP -- it just simply occurs to me the absurdity of thinking that Joseph Smith's 'translation' technique was anthing other than "making stuff up".

I did my own "ancient chinese grammar" -- really a lexicon, not a grammar at all -- to understand the original texts of LaoZi, ZhuangZi, KongZi (confucius), etc. Obviously, some chinese glyphs, such as "道"/Dao/The Way, "天"/tian/Heaven, "名"/Ming/Name, "中"/zhong/middle/center could be represented in a very long, verbose explanation of what each glyph implies, depending upon its context. But to call this an "inspired grammar", and then to impute a cosmology or even any semantics as a result of the presence of certain characters is patently absurd. Translation of ancient texts doesn't work that way.

Take for the example "bai ma fei ma" - literally "White horse not horse". This is a very deep and complex philosophical point in ancient chinese philosophy, having to do with the concept that instances of a universal attribute (whiteness, horseness) are not the same as the attribute itself. One does not get that by decomposing the characters as to what they mean. Even an entire paragraph explanation of each character will not indicate the meaning of the phrase bai ma fei ma, because the semantics are implied by the grammar (not the lexicon) as well as the context.

There is a wonderful episode of Star Trek, Next Generation, entitled "Darmok", where the Picard has an encounter with a race of beings that spoke only in metaphor -- symbols of meaning derived from their myths. Without an understanding of the myths, the context, the actual grammatical construction of the language, translating glyphs into meaning is completely devoid of any meaning.

One would think that the mopologists, some of whom actually know ancient languages, would understand the nuances of translation of ancient languages. Joseph not only had no clue what he was doing, but in doing it, he had no clue that he had no clue -- which makes the Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar a completely absurd piece of horse manure.

I like what Sock Puppet points out here -- that in creating this absurd piece of non-scholarship, Joseph Smith discovered the cosmological structures as referenced in Abraham 3. To the critical thinker, this is pretty good evidence that the cosmology in Abraham 3 is fanciful guesswork, having no basis whatsoever in any reality. Why do I say this? Because if the "Seer" was presumably making an inspired translation of the glyphs, and he was convinced the translations were authentic, while at the same time witnessing that the vision of the cosmos was authentic, then the evidence that the glyph translations were entirely bunk puts the term 'bunk' pretty closely associated with the Abrahamic cosmos.

Sterling McMurrin points out that the LDS church is basically a dogmatic religion with the addition of revelation (see first chapter of Theological Foundations of the Mormon Religion. How right he is on this. The LDS church has painted itself in a corner with scriptural statements that cannot be recinded without the perception that the whole will collapse. The "all or nothing" paradigm works more against the church than for it.

It's time to grow up, though. Simply admitting that much of the Book of Abraham is a mistake would be a great start...
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